"Continuously Conical Bore"

[scottw]

In reading Tim Jackson's recent post regarding vintage horns, I didn't want to hijack that, so I'll post this separately.
Has anyone ever heard of a completely conical tuba, let alone played one? Up until Thursday, I could say never and never. I recently bought some old instruments from a sax player who passed away and the widow wanted to clean out the barn-full of his collection. I bought the 4 brass instruments, including a 3-valve Lyon & Healy Eb tuba, made between 1922-23 [Turns out, it was a stencil made by Couturier]. I got it from the repair shop and decided to play it for a rehearsal Thursday night. What first caught my eye was that it had no, zero, valve slides, just a MTS. That was certainly an odd arrangement of the tubing. I could only imagine the intonation issues without a way to correct tuning. When I played it, however, this little horn just played so well! Intonation didn't seem at all squirrely and it spoke very nicely up and down. The front-action pistons were smooth and fast. Basically---I was a blast playing it! I researched it some yesterday, and when looking at the engraving on the bell, sure enough, it said "Continuously Conical". The MTS kept the full conical thing going in the way it was made, with both legs being different diameters and the bow growing in size from leg to leg. A very mellow sound, but would bark when pushed hard. In all, quite enjoyable to play.
So: Ever heard of a tuba made like this? Discuss.
Scottw

[matt g]

There’s a few posts on the board regarding these curious specimens, specifically the Couturier examples.

Interesting that the intonation is pretty good as is.

[humBell]

Yes, i have heard of 'em...

Sorry for hiding discussion in other locations, like the WTB subforum: viewtopic.php?t=1083

[humBell]

And apologies for perhaps an unsatisfyingly curt reply...

I probably have more to say than i have time to order my thoughts in a coherent fashion. Let's see if i can figure out the important ones...

1. Wicked cool! Keep playing it like there's no tomorrow!

2. As far as i know, Lyon and Healy of that style are legitimately Couturiers, as they bought the company from him, but more on that to come, as i recently scored a Goodwill Couturier baritone missing parts, and will see if they match those of my L&H, and how they play respectively.

3. Er, also take good care of it. Not a lot of replacement parts to fix them...

Addendum... valve caps are stuck on my L&H Couturier style, and was too lazy to track down tools, so maybe next time i'll say if they fit and how the older sounds...

[Tubeast]

Considering the percentage of valve slides that have been in exactly the same position they had been delivered 25 years ago...
truly all-conical tubas with conical valve slides may actually be practical.
I wonder what the effect might be...

[windshieldbug]

The first Couturier Conical Bore instruments were completely conical, even through the valves. That was their selling point until they went out of business and L&H took over.
They had NO slides, except for a short main tuning slide.



The intonation issues were predictable, but they do have a mellow sound...

[scottw]

The first Couturier Conical Bore instruments were completely conical, even through the valves. That was their selling point until they went out of business and L&H took over.
They had NO slides, except for a short main tuning slide.



The intonation issues were predictable, but they do have a mellow sound...

That is what this tuba has: 1 main slide, which is itself conical. The valves themselves are the only cylindrical part in the entire horn.
Scottw

[UncleBeer]

That is what this tuba has: 1 main slide, which is itself conical. The valves themselves are the only cylindrical part in the entire horn.

Not to pick nits, but I'm pretty sure the MTS slide legs would have to be cylindrical to be moveable.

[UncleBeer]

Couturier-EEb-Tuba-F.jpg (83.47 KiB) Viewed 1169 times

[scottw]

That is what this tuba has: 1 main slide, which is itself conical. The valves themselves are the only cylindrical part in the entire horn.

Not to pick nits, but I'm pretty sure the MTS slide legs would have to be cylindrical to be moveable.

Conical in the sense that each leg is a different diameter and obviously, there is a short length that is cylindrical.
BTW, that looks like the model I played. A bit bell-heavy, but ergonomically okay.

[donn]

The intonation issues were predictable, but they do have a mellow sound...

Are those some fat bows?

345 and 20J for comparison.

[bloke]

Based on where he was located, does anyone suspect that he may have been buying most of his parts from either Conn or Buescher?

[scottw]

I assume that LaPorte, Indiana is near the rest of the makers out there, so that certainly seems likely. The shape and overall design isn't what you would consider "off the shelf" parts, I would think though.

[arpthark]

Not too far from Chicago/Holton, either, but nothing really looks Holtonish about 'em to my untrained tuba eye.

[bloke]

Not too far from Chicago/Holton, either, but nothing really looks Holtonish about 'em to my untrained tuba eye.

I have some Buescher large E-flat instruments/parts. I don't find them to be particularly viable as instruments, but they have nice bells, bottom bows, and obviously brace and water key hardware. I guess I should pull one down and try to take a straight on picture to see how similar it might be to the picture in this thread.

The the swell in the bore in the picture appears monstrous around and past the tuning slide, which makes me wonder if it's a very small instrument. I would like to know what diameter the bell is on that Couturier...

...The Buescher E-flat stuff that I have around here would probably classified as so-called "monster", with 18-in bells.

[scottw]

Not too far from Chicago/Holton, either, but nothing really looks Holtonish about 'em to my untrained tuba eye.

I have some Buescher large E-flat instruments/parts. I don't find them to be particularly viable as instruments, but they have nice bells, bottom bows, and obviously brace and water key hardware. I guess I should pull one down and try to take a straight on picture to see how similar it might be to the picture in this thread.

The the swell in the bore in the picture appears monstrous around and past the tuning slide, which makes me wonder if it's a very small instrument. I would like to know what diameter the bell is on that Couturier...

...The Buescher E-flat stuff that I have around here would probably classified as so-called "monster", with 18-in bells.

I'll measure the bell tonight when I play it. It is very big in proportion to the short, squat rest of the horn. I'll bet it is bigger than 18', though. I'll let you know.
Scottw

[PlayTheTuba]

When I played it, however, this little horn just played so well! Intonation didn't seem at all squirrely and it spoke very nicely up and down.

WAIT, so if the Couturier Eb is as BIIG as it looks, ie "6/4" Eb tuba size. Like the Wessex 6/4 Eb Tuba ‘Tubby’ - TE665HP or the Kanstul 66T (top action piston) and 33s (front side action) plus York equivalents... Couturier figured out how to make an Eb in that size be in tune and play well, in those days! With a gorgeous sound too!! And no company thought it would be a good idea to recreate them or at least the bugle

Although it doesn't have a 4th valve sooo maybe the low register not be that great like on other large and old Eb tubas... Heck even the super awesome mellow 4 front action piston valves 6/4 BBb Martin at the Army Band Conference the 4th valve register was a bit stuffy.

And that tuba needed 2 elbows to reach the valves comfortably... And people complain about top action ergonomics...

[donn]

Just to make sure to avoid confusion - scottw's tuba, and the photo posted by UncleBeer, Eb. Bloke's apparently looking at this one, speculating that it might be on the small side. As it apparently is.

The photo windshieldbug posted is a contrabass tuba, presumably BBb. It's on the large side, if you ask me, but particularly the bows on the way to the bell, as opposed to the bell itself. 36 inches high, 20 3/4 inch bell.

[bloke]

yeah...(no sarcasm...this ACTUALLY)

I'm often not 100% up to speed with the specifics within replies - nor even (necessarily) with the original posts...

...but you folks figured that out long ago, so...

[PlayTheTuba]

@donn, @bloke

You are both correct. I also somehow missed the part that I quoted that mentioned the word "little."

Dang, no biiiiig and super old in tune Eb tuba.