POLL ADDED !!! - Holton BB-345 twin-spin (first actual picture on p.2)

[bloke]

The bell is sticking up too high, because it's only lined up with the bottom bow, and not even inserted at all.

@everettmp
Here's your chance to become a real (albeit amateur...because - you know - B-flat) tuba player.

[Doc]

The bell is sticking up too high, because it's only lined up with the bottom bow, and not even inserted at all.

@everettmp
Here's your chance to become a real (albeit amateur...because - you know - B-flat) tuba player.

I’m already an amateur. I want right of first refusal.

[York-aholic]

That horn is going to be a great addition to my tuba room, switching playing duties weekly between this Holton 345 and my York 736 4v

[bloke]

That horn is going to be a great addition to my tuba room, switching playing duties weekly between this Holton 345 and my York 736 4v

I might just keep this and bring it to church gigs in its hard case - along with the Miraphone 98 and it's hard case, and switch back and forth between the two - depending on whether the composer of the brass-and-choir piece is American or European.

[bloke]

YEARS ago, I had this (specifically: BRASS, as Holton 345 tubas feature NO nickel silver) upper bow cap made by a friend (who had the right sort of tool, the talent/skill, and helped me use it - fun/interesting/illuminating).

Holton NEVER put these on their 345 tubas, but I thought it would look cool, and more "pro-looking".
I put up a POLL (today - in this thread) asking if I should trim up this part and install it on the upper bow...or not.
again: Holton NEVER (to my knowledge) put these on their 6/4 upper bows.

I would need to remove the wire, install this, and then re-install the wire.
IT WOULD ADD COST to the tuba, regardless of how it would otherwise be priced...probably $250 - $300...
(It would be considerably more, WERE it that I had this part made TODAY - vs. having had made it many years ago).

Personally, I would probably (??) recommend it, as I don't view Holton's skill (not even sixty years ago) regarding bending a huge bow (such as a 6/4 top bow) to be as high as that of the Europeans, and - generally - I've found that the tops of these bows tend to be thinner than one might wish.

If you care to (or might be interested in purchasing this tuba, upon project completion) respond to the new POLL in this thread.

[York-aholic]

That horn is going to be a great addition to my tuba room, switching playing duties weekly between this Holton 345 and my York 736 4v

I might just keep this and bring it to church gigs in its hard case - along with the Miraphone 98 and it's hard case, and switch back and forth between the two - depending on whether the composer of the brass-and-choir piece is American or European.

I was thinking the same thing, but more specific locations, Michigan or Indiana...

[bloke]

Marching season isn't quite over, and there are still a few acute/frantic repairs in regards to that stuff, but it's mostly calmed down. Mrs bloke is trying to get everyone to send in their concert woodwinds now, instead of after they are needed... mostly bass clarinets and baritone/tenor saxophones, but a few oboes and bassoons as well. Some schools even have a few upper woodwinds for kids that just don't have any resources to buy things.

Over two decades ago, I sold a female student - who is now a local band director - a King 3B trombone (' looks like Seeburg era) to play in her college jazz band, and her son - who is now only a little younger than she was then - is (enthusiastically) playing in his school's jazz band and combo with that instrument. Sadly, she has also let him march with it and I'm in the process of fixing it all up and shooting some new lacquer on it. It needs slide work besides bell work. To his credit, he has played it an awful lot, and has worn through both nickel cross brace tubes on the playing slide, so I'm scrounging some .450" o.d. nickel cross tubing material from some crappy old ruined King student trombones to replace those (rather than waiting months and months to get them from Conn-Selmer). Last night, I flattened out the bell creases real nicely and - running my hand around the bell throat - it feels nice and smooth and round (without facets). I'm going to try to get that one done today, and possibly even shot with lacquer. I'm going to try to do a little bit of a tricky thing - whereby I spray gold lacquer on the brass parts and spray clear lacquer on the nickel parts, to add a little bit of pizzazz.

Another project that got approved was that Glantz Holton bass trombone conversion, but I'm not starting on that right now. I individually quoted on the various aspects of that job, and offered some cosmetic stuff that would have given it a boost. Those extras were not approved, so this is going to be a nice clean job that involves very little buffing. I'm going to save it for when I don't feel like getting dirty.

I'm also doing a complete everything on a 1960s heavy-linkage miraphone 186 to sell to a Catholic high school - which actually features the nation's oldest high school band. Over the years, they've bought several of the same model of tuba (used) from me, and they are now asking for yet one more. This is the one whereby I'm moving that 60+ years old nickel krantz to that 186s bell. I'm wondering if the body was ever lacquered, because there are no signs of it and it's a very deep dark brown color, but not very beat up at all compared to the bell which I had to discard and salvage the krantz. It also features nice tight rotors, so this instrument should live a long time. I'm not going to start on this instrument until I get that krantz completely fastened on to that bell, but that should be pretty soon.

Frankly, I would like to tear into this Holton and get it done, (sold?), and out of here, because it's big, and also I have a huge Besson Sovereign Edgware Road vintage 3+1 compensating B-flat in a Winter case (shiny/scratchy lacquer) that I would like to straighten out and get ready for sale - along with the Holton. Actually, I have a great big new/old stock wood case for the Holton as well. It's a bit impractical, but it is what it is.

I would really like to do would be to step back from the world for a couple of weeks and finish up that 9-ft/B-flat 6-valve (4+2) bass trombone cimbasso project for myself, but alas: That doesn't pay any money.
=============
I did step away from the King 3B last night for a few minutes and did some work on the Holton valve section, it's really not that screwed up - compared to the one I did for one of our TubaForum patrons a couple of years ago, and I'm hoping that the tubing alignment isn't too far off. The upper #4 slide bow on these always takes a horrible beating, but this one I was able to repair, thankfully. I wanted to work on that last night, because no one makes any interchangeable slide bow that fits that position on a Holton, so that would have been a stumbling block, otherwise.
==============
I'm still a little bit sick - but no one's paying me to do that, so I'm trying to pretend that I'm not.

[bloke]

I'm really not feeling much better today, but I did get this done (and maybe, I might go back out later, solder the playing slide together, and polish it...??)

This is the King 3B. This (again) is one of the later thin ones (not a built-like-a-tank H. N. White one) and the bell was creased on both sides, so I (literally) burnished the (then: formerly-creased) areas, as there was absolutely no room for sandpaper, and only a tiny bit of buffing. Actual burnishing involves rubbing metal shiny without removing any measurable amount of metal...ie. tedious...and I didn't "burnish" it to a gloss finish (I'm not sure that I'm actually that skilled... ) but I worked the crease marks down completely flat. ...I wouldn't do this for just anyone, but this is a really nice family, the lady is a good person, and they've done a great job of raising their sons... 99.99% of everyone gets the "I don't do 'lacquer jobs'." thing, but (again) this lady and her family are super-nice. (I only deal with refinishing/lacquered when SELLING stuff, and - even then - if parts of an instrument look "good" (such as "most of the valveset of a tuba") I'll probably re-lacquer only that which is begging to be re-lacquered.

...so the bell (not yet degreased, but) is basically ready to lacquer (clear, and then I'll go back, FrogTape off the nickel parts and gold-tint the brass parts), the tuning slide (same), and the playing slide tubes are all dent-free and lathe-straightened. The playing slide bow has had all of its little dinks removed and (thankfully) no red-rot was found in that bow. You might see where I salvaged some c. .450" diameter nickel cross-tubes (to replace both of the worn-through ones), and I even have a couple of pretty new "KING" gold-and-black balancer stickers to put on at the very end.

I'm going to take a hot tub-soak, lay down in front of the TV, and see if (??) I get motivated to go out and (again) get that playing slide back together and shined up.

If the humidity level is good tomorrow, I might shoot everything with clear, and let it all skin over for a few days.

While waiting for that (for the gold-tinted color-lacquering and subsequent funds-collection), I might tear into that Holton "Glantz" bass trombone linkage conversion...

bloke "trying to pay deez be-illz dat dem ohdurz runz-up"







This had a bunch of little dinks in it, but I was able to repair it with three dent balls and a magnet.

bloke "I don't brag on my slide work...I don't need endless dozens of those silly 'slide boxes' mailed here, and the phone ringing constantly with 'Is it ready?' peeps on the other end of the line."

[bloke]

Yeah !
No gigs this weekend...so I can keep fixing horns.
I'm going to shoot lacquer on this trombone today, and start tearing apart that gimmicky 1980s Holton bass trombone.

I'm trying to decide how many days to let the clear skin over on this King trombone before I mask off the nickel parts and hit the brass with tint. I've always thought that the way that King sprayed over entire instruments with tint - including the nickel - looked like crap. (Just think how really great ~actual~ gold brass instruments look when lacquered with clear lacquer, and their nickel accents are allowed to stand out.)

continued stream of consciousness:
After all these years, it looks like I'm actually going to get the vintage excellent condition Jakob Winter case that I've been looking for (originally supplied with Cerveny 681 tubas decades ago, and when manufacturers chose JW cases because - back then - they were bargain-priced) that fits my F tuba snugly and with minimum bulk. I can finally start thinking about putting a new lacquer job on that instrument, as the factory lacquer - which was probably about the equivalent of rattle can lacquer - is mostly gone. (It's one thing to be fat, old, and on stage, but it's another thing to be fat, old, and holding a big ugly brown instrument on stage.)

[bloke]

I got this slide put back together yesterday, but stuff came up - so I'll be polishing it today, and lacquering everything today.

The articulating slide surfaces are dirty, and - obviously - not lubricated, but it's already working well enough to make me smile and (maybe?) to prompt the owner to giggle.

From end-to-end, I'm getting a measurement - between outside playing slide tubes (in the vernacular) - of precisely 2 & 2/3rds inches.
(I wonder how long that will last...??)







While working on that Holton bass trombone conversion, I'm probably going to ALSO be looking at the Holton 345 tuba valveset.

[bloke]

reminded:

Lacquering in this part of the country in the fall (on a day with no wind, cool temps, and low humidity) is a piece of cake...
They fool me into believing I'm a "pro" at this.

(I can mix nice thick-ish run-resistant lacquer, add NO drying retarder, go ahead and let it "appear" (straight out of the gun) to "orange-peel", but - in a few seconds - it settles down nice and smooth, and skins over in (seemingly) a matter of seconds.

=========================

If I'm going to float some gold tint over the brass parts, though, I think I had better wait one or two days to mask over the nickel parts...YET its a balance between hardness (not wishing to peel the clear off with masking tape) and adhesion (of wet to dry).

[bloke]

OK...
The King 3B is DONE !!!
I decided on a LIGHT-gold tint (rather than "H.N. White orange").
The engraving (I believe this must have been previously buffed) isn't particularly sharp and any darker tint might have obliterated the "KING 3B CONCERT" jazz on the bell.
It's tricky to mask off fresh/delicate/only-two-days-skinned-over clear lacquer to protect it from a 2nd coat of gold tint (with the gold tint sprayed on the brass parts only). I took advantage of the opportunity, though, and sprayed on really thin (ie. a bunch of lacquer thinner) lacquer, to make the lacquer even smoother than the clear underneath. The gun (lack of bloke-maintenance) wouldn't shoot today, so I had to soak the spray head in thinner before it would pull up lacquer out of the cup, again. By the time it had soaked long enough to resume functioning properly, it was raining so I stood about three feet inside the barn and shot the trombone with whatever didn't hit the trombone going out the barn into the rain...Thankfully, it worked out fine.




DAMN, this trombone's slide feels GOOOOOD !!!

Here is an example of why NO ONE should EVER hire me to play 'bone...
(Try one of these links, if you dare...

https://imgur.com/JsZWWIo
or
https://i.imgur.com/JsZWWIo.mp4

Earlier today, another trombone player picked up their fixed-up-nice Conn 88H, and also (while they waited) had me swap out both narrow slide bows (lower #1 circuit, and upper #2 on their Conn 5J TUBA) that were (Abilene production) "toast". I installed new Eastlake slide bows and also stuck King 2280 (euphonium) slide pull rings on each of those slide bows. I had previously done a huge restoration on that instrument (no re-finishing), but those two replacement slide bows didn't arrive from Conn-Selmer in a timely manner, so I just went ahead and ordered them from Elkhorn.

OK...
so NOW, I can do the 1980's Holton bass trombone linkage conversion gig, and THEN - get back to this Holton BB-345 "put-back-nice job".

[bloke]

admission:

On touch up things, I mostly use rattle cans. Lately - particularly with summer repairs, I've hardly used the Binks lacquer gun and Devilbiss compressor at all.
With this trombone, I was just reminded of how much easier lacquer goes on when I use the right stuff and do it the right way.

Years ago - to get good at using rattle cans (since it's such a different skill set compared to a lacquer gun and since Nikolas lacquer rattle cans have crappy spray nozzles), I would lacquer entire school tuba bells and bottom bows with rattle cans. Recently, I sold a used Elkhart Bach marching baritone to a school, and it needed about 3/4 of the instrument relacquered to look like something worth selling. I did the whole thing with a rattle can with a little bit of gold tint, so that the old lacquer up in the valve block and slides and the new lacquer on the bell and bows would be closer to the same color. I could have easily done that with the Binks lacquer gun, but it was just as easy with a rattle can, and I went ahead and did it in my work room since the air conditioning was running full blast and there wasn't much humidity in there, and outside it was horribly humid. I just sprayed the marching baritone, sort of held my breath, and got out quick. Because in the humid south - and if I have to spray with the lacquer gun and compressor, I have to mix in some drying retarder to discourage blushing, it's still going to blush anyway, and then I have to get up right next to the tuba with my mouth, blow on the wet lacquer with my breath, and - right next to my mouth - I have to run a flame across the lacquer to pull out the moisture, so that the blushing disappears. It's pretty crazy, , but I've taught myself how to do it over the decades. When I sold @Rick Denney a vintage Miraphone tuba not too long ago, (besides working with translucent tints in the lacquer to come close to matching the darker original lacquer - which was in pretty good shape on the valve section), I had to deal with the blushing issue, along with the blowing on the tuba and the fire right next to my mouth.

[Grumpikins]

I could possibly be tempted to swap my Cc tuba with one of those horns. But I would rather have it repaired as needed and just spot lacquered. Im ok with some dings and scratches. Silver looks amazing, but tarnish sucks!

My other half automatically says No!

Like you and Lemark, I have been playing Bb lately and wonder why I still have a Cc.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[bloke]

The body of this thing is pretty close to being ready to put together permanently, but I need to finish the 186, and there are some dents here and there to remove from the valve section on this instrument. I'm eager to get this one together and ready to sell, whether or not I've got a buyer.

[bloke]

I'm finally doubling back to BB-345 #2, even though I can't give it my undivided attention.

valve sections:
1/ dent removal and brace repairs
2/ fitting/testing of individual pairs of inside outside tubes
3/ alignment pairs of outside slide tubes both parallel and coplanar
4/ adjusting slide bows to the width or the new width of the outside slide assemblies, assembly of the moving slide assemblies, final fitting of the moving slides to whatever level of ease of movement an individual slide dictates
X/ lacquer stripping & acid bath (whenever)

so far: "Some of" the dents have been removed...oh, and - hey! - all of the slides have been freed/extracted.
noticed at first glance:
> The #1 outside slide assembly's coplanar and parallel features are nonexistent; ie. the oem alignment is ghastly.
> The fixed #4 circuit loop isn't particularly nicely aligned with the slides, but - as that affects nothing mechanical, and contact points are involved - I believe I'll let it exist as built.
> Overall, it sort of appears to be set up fairly well, but I'm anything-but expecting any of the rest of the pairs of outside slide tubes to be either coplanar or parallel. After all: Holton
> pistons/casings: fine
> Scrolling up just a few windows, I have ABSOLUTELY NO MEMORY of that King trombone repair (from just about exactly a year ago)...No. Really...no memory whatsoever.
> While working on this BB-345 valveset (property of bloke), I'll ALSO be working on a set of BB-345 bows (entire set) for a customer.
> The rest of this instrument (bell, all bows, mouthpipe tube) all are - pretty much - ready to stick together. I DO have some (school repairs related) "road trips" to make within the next few days, but I really would like to finish sticking this thing together and getting it tooting before heading out of town to play another ultra-high-brow "symphony orchestra plays video game music" concert over in Nashvull.
> After this (hopefully...), my next project to squeeze in and offer for sale will be a really sweet (never-damaged 16-1/2" bell, and superb rotors) Miraphone 186 BB-flat. ...This is the LAST of a "mess of" 186's which were in bloke's attic, but (the rest of which) have been repaired/refinished, and sold, so THAT'S progress.
> For myself (??), I'd like to "imagine" that I can get the Buescher bass saxophone restoration all slicked out, lacquered, ready to re-pad and placed into Mrs. bloke's woodwind room, and (also) the bass trombone (4+2 config) B-flat cimbasso project, but I'm not hopeful re: either of those anytime real soon.

[bloke]

royal flush (well, not really because only three things, but...)

- lacquer stripped completely/easily
- acid bath cleaned off the surfaces nicely
- a formerly-cracked (seam) inside slide tube is nicely brazed back together and slides just as nicely as its sister tube

I stayed up too late last night (had some money bet with a naysayer re: "will/won't win the [otherwise: moot] popular vote", and stayed up until I saw that I won the bet and by how much - It was $XX per million over even, and they would have won $XXX per million under...but I knew my bet was safe). I'm finally feeling alert enough (dinner hour) to go out there and align these slide tubes.

bloke "People should only bet on things which they know will come to pass, and not on things that their emotions cause them to wish will come to pass. me? I only bet on sure things."

[bloke]

The #1 slide tubes were out of plane because the brace rod (three piece assembly) was cut too long (factory). I could find no other way to remedy that without removing the 3-piece brace assembly and shortening the rod. Next, the parallel issue (same outside slide assembly) was too wide at the opening...same thing: the brace rod was cut too long (but not by a bunch). Since the elbow out of the #1 casing (Holton) is connected by a ferrule, (rather than removing that 3-piece brace as well) and "let out" the tubing coming out of the #1 casing, which widened the LOWER end of those tubes (yet another bloke shortcut).

OK...I STILL have to mess with the slide bow to fit the movable/inside slide assembly to the new corrected dimensions of the outside slide.

I also discovered why the #4 circuit (which loops over the #1 casing and then stabs into the #4 casing on the player's side of the tuba) didn't "look" good. They cut the last 90 degree elbow (of it) too short, there is a 1/4-inch gap, and they jammed those parts together (with barely any of either the casing knuckle nor the circuit knuckle finding their way into the connecting ferrule. I have some (rare) BRASS (nearly always nickel) Miraphone .835" bore tubing, which will be cut to become a wider connecting knuckle for that.

bloke "Rendering Holton 345 valvesets respectable is very tedious, and I'm not even keeping this one for myself"

[bloke]

#1 is well aligned now.

I've just never found that #2 matters... if it works, it works, and these are so short that they're usually pretty difficult for even the most hungover Monday morning factory worker to screw up.

Upper #3 is hard to measure reliably, but I managed, it looks pretty darn good from the factory. Also, lower #3 looks good from the factory.

Upper #4 was co-planar, but not parallel. That one was easy to fix, and I left the top the same width as it was from the factory and adjusted the brace assembly, so the narrow bow wouldn't have to be fought with.

Lower #4 is still a little bit of a mess, but It should be easy to mess with - even though I've got to do some solder stuff.

The #4 hidden side casing plug-in was a real mess and total factory bull$h!t. I made one new part for it (as described in the previous post I believe), and was able to work on the rest of it and get it something that's reliable, and looks basically right.

There are only a couple of dinks remaining in the curved tubing in the valve section, and they are going to be easy to remove.

Examining all of the outside slide tubing (by sighting down it towards the light fixtures), I'm reasonably proud of the job I did of removing the little dents - which were not legion, but also not non-existent.

I'm hoping that whoever ends up buying this get something good. I'm certainly trying to make it be good.

[bloke]

A bunch of driving all over the place to a bunch of schools is exhausting, and then there's typing up all the quotes and all that jazz. I got a 60 chart book of symphony orchestra video game crap to look through - which I dread looking through. I can play all of it I know, but I just had better look at every one of the charts.

This valve section is about 80% done and just sits.

In the meantime, school repairs and customer repairs are piling up on top of it.