messing around with (valve) tuning systems

[bloke]

I've played my C tuba in B (main slide extensions, with other slides pulled out farther).
I've played my B-flat tuba in A (also main slide extensions, with other slides pulled out farther).
With both of those configurations, I messed around with them for a couple of weeks or more, and not just for a few minutes...even playing through stuff like "Fountains", "Ride", etc...

I built 4+1 B-flat with an F-semitone (long HALF step) 5th valve circuit.

I've never familiarized myself with a 3+3 configuration - neither "Vienna" nor "French".

Something I may (??) mess around with this week is an augmented fourth 4th circuit, and observe what happens with intonation/fingerings/etc.

My model 98 Miraphone has plenty (and even more, since I altered it) of slide tubing to pull out from a perfect fourth to an augmented fourth, I am ALREADY playing C with 1-3, likely can ALSO play "low F" with 1-3, and I'm going to "see about" playing B and "low E" with 4th valve alone, and see what all the other consequences end up being.

I'll report back (probably: boring, as are my other posts).

I don't plan to "go with this" (unless it proves to be "amazing" or something...)

bloke "Actually, I believe I might (??) have enough tubing - in the 4th circuit - to affect a so-called 'quint valve'...possibly: barely...??...but that doesn't intrigue me as much."

[daktx2]

I am also considering a slightly heterodox setup. The 5 valve Symphonie I'm getting acquainted with right now was built with a fairly short fifth valve, with a max pull just barely enough for an in tune Bb. This allows for a perfectly in tune 235 Gb and B natural with the fifth valve pushed in all but ~1/4 of an inch.

When I initially purchased it, I thought I'd have the fifth valve lengthened to the typical modern length where Bb is in tune mostly pushed in, but I'm considering lengthening it just enough to allow 235 B natural to be perfect pushed all the way in. That should give enough room for Bb to be comfortable pulled father out, but not about to fall off like it requires right now (probably with some kind of stopping mechanism). G still requires a bigger yank than I'd be able to get out of my fifth valve, but I can pull the fourth valve slide for that.

I haven't checked yet to see if I have enough pull for a tritone fourth. That'd be interesting to mess with as well, particularly since the shorter fifth allows for an easily in tune 5+3 C and G, and with a bit of extra length, a 135 Bb.

Of course a sixth valve would resolve all of these problems instantly...

[Ace]

I built 4+1 B-flat with an F-semitone (long HALF step) 5th valve circuit.

My new Cerveny 601-5MR CC tuba came with a 3/4 tone drop on the fifth valve, left hand mount. Loved it.

Ace

[bloke]

I am also considering a slightly heterodox setup. The 5 valve Symphonie I'm getting acquainted with right now was built with a fairly short fifth valve, with a max pull just barely enough for an in tune Bb. This allows for a perfectly in tune 235 Gb and B natural with the fifth valve pushed in all but ~1/4 of an inch.

When I initially purchased it, I thought I'd have the fifth valve lengthened to the typical modern length where Bb is in tune mostly pushed in, but I'm considering lengthening it just enough to allow 235 B natural to be perfect pushed all the way in. That should give enough room for Bb to be comfortable pulled father out, but not about to fall off like it requires right now (probably with some kind of stopping mechanism). G still requires a bigger yank than I'd be able to get out of my fifth valve, but I can pull the fourth valve slide for that.

I haven't checked yet to see if I have enough pull for a tritone fourth. That'd be interesting to mess with as well, particularly since the shorter fifth allows for an easily in tune 5+3 C and G, and with a bit of extra length, a 135 Bb.

Of course a sixth valve would resolve all of these problems instantly...

With my six valve version of this model, I altered the fifth valve so as fifth would be usually long enough to play B-flat, and there's a right hand thumb trigger to push the fifth slide out long enough to play a very solid second partial low f with all six valves.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[jtm]

With my six valve version of this model, I altered the fifth valve so as fifth would be usually long enough to play B-flat, and there's a right hand thumb trigger to push the fifth slide out long enough to play a very solid second partial low f with all six valves.

I'll get over it, but I'm a little envious of this.

[bloke]

With my six valve version of this model, I altered the fifth valve so as fifth would be usually long enough to play B-flat, and there's a right hand thumb trigger to push the fifth slide out long enough to play a very solid second partial low f with all six valves.

I'll get over it, but I'm a little envious of this.

It's much more stable, and the sonority matches the pitches above it. Even when crossing over to second valve E below that F, there's at least a little bit of cylindrical tubing that offers more stability/resistance for the E than for the F.

When playing Rite of Spring - which I have played more times than I can remember and whether I am the regular/principal person or the brought-in guy, I always choose the second tuba part, because unquestionably it's the best part to play. With all six valves down and playing red hot, you should hear those octave F's in the tubas towards the beginning of that piece.

Gronitz F:
I spent some fairly serious money to buy one of those from an unknown seller off eBay, because I was tired of going to tuba shows and no one had one there to try out. (There was a tremendous amount of hype at that time for that model.) I played it for a few minutes, and - before sundown - I had it relisted. Happily, I unloaded it for a thousand more than the amount I paid. I think I was pretty lucky to not only find out how those things play but to rid myself of it so quickly at a little profit.

[jtm]

... low F with all the valves ...

It's much more stable, and the sonority matches the pitches above it. Even when crossing over to second valve E below that F, there's at least a little bit of cylindrical tubing that offers more stability/resistance for the E than for the F.

With open F on a Symphonie, the longest cylindrical tubing is the main tuning slide legs.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

"too in-tune" was certainly not my experience with the new-cond. G-125 F that I purchased and immediately re-sold.
...and I've listened to enough of Gene's recorded online interviews (compared to confidential remarks) to suspect (??) that he was being "nice" (as he's not only very nice, but very tactful).
Yes, I know that he had one for a bit...I believe he kept his slightly longer than I kept mine, but not all that much longer.
off-site comments: https://tinyurl.com/22jdyvzp

> When instruments (those which are borderline "magical") are made bigger (ex: PT-10 vs. Symphonie Modell) - just as with the Mark 7 vs. Mark VI Selmer alto saxophones - it usually proves to be a "bridge too far"
(which is why well-preserved Selmer Mark VI altos now sell for close to $10,000, whereas Mark 7 altos tend to sell for less than $3000).

bloke "but tuba players (on average, yes?) tend to be less discriminating, with (most-of-the-time) bigger/more-open perceived as better"

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

Tritone fourth valves on instruments - that are already good instruments - is an intriguing idea, and that's why (when I built a B flat tuba, fairly recently) I put put an F semitone length 5th valve on that instrument. In other words, the tritone exists with the fourth and fifth valves, but I didn't go so far as to build the fourth valve alone that length.

I've owned two different Gronitz instruments. One of them I played for a year or two and finally realized I was having to work around too many things to make it do what it should. The F instrument: I realized that in about three minutes. It's okay to be skeptical - and to assume that I wasn't giving it enough of a chance. As stated, I'm a skeptic myself.

I play well enough to get hired some, but I don't play well enough nor practice enough to be able to play hard-to-play instruments really well. With those realities revealed, I need instruments that - even if I haven't touched an instrument in two or three or even six weeks (such as in midsummer or after January) - need to feel like an old pair of shoes immediately, because - sometimes -:I grab an instrument and show up for a job without even opening the case prior to that job after all those weeks, and the first thing I play is what happens when I open a case at the gig.

I do realize that the most political stuff that is discussed here is nothing about Republicans and Democrats or Russia or Israel, the most political stuff that we discuss here is the viability of particular makes and models of tubas.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

I've made tons of buying mistakes with tubas...fortunately none with marriages...

Lately, I've only sold off stuff that - after they were sold (and others were allowed - by the new owners - to play them) - people messaged me with something akin to "Why the HELL would you sell that...!?!?", so (maybe...??) I'm learning, and making better tuba buying choices, lately.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

Tubas with serious tuning problems can be played in tune (in the past, I made repeated misjudgments of buying several of them, worked very hard to play them in tune for a while, and then sold them), but the question is how many hours a day is someone willing to work to overcome those serious issues playing music and working towards playing better (vs. devoting precious time towards simply being able to properly play a particular troublesome instrument). After a week or two, I could always tell that I had made a mistake and had bought a tuba which played too badly oit of tune, because - when I would pick them up to play them - I would tend to only play arpeggios in order to teach and remind myself where all of the crazy pitches were located, and what to do about them (again, rather than actually getting down to working on music or improving my own playing ability).

Though the listed topic is discussing playing around with the overall length of an instrument or maybe different types of fifth valve lengths which are unusual, the thread has gone off the rails, and - rather than tubas unusual tuning strategies - various types of people are apparently being discussed.

alright, then...
There are those who chose particular out of tune tubas - and work with them for incredible numbers of hours daily - to continuously remind their minds and muscles how to overcome those serious problems. These people can be players who make six figures a year playing the tuba, or people who make no money at all each year playing the tuba.

There are others who buy those same problematic instruments (for various reasons or no particular reason) who - simply - play them out of tune.

Another type of person will refer to well-known/successful people (rather than discussing the realities regarding topical equipment or strategies/actions themselves) who do certain things, and those well-known/successful people are held up as examples that any particular decisions they make and/or things they do are the best things to do, and won't consider that they might be successful in spite of doing or using the discussed things. The following is an over-the-top and very imperfect analogy, but using the celebrity of particular people to defend any particular types of choices really doesn't work, because it's almost like saying if you want to become a top movie star, you need to get married and divorced four or five times, because that's what they do.

Finally, there are trolls (who post only to attempt to irritate, and attempt to get into personalities) with whom - for my own amusement - i often tend to re-troll. It's instructive how quickly it's been demonstrated that what I've said about - in reality - what is the most political topic on this forum is apparently correct. How quickly - after I just finished pointing that out - someone was triggered, and ran over to stand behind a high achiever's (past) choices/decisions in order to stand their (albeit unclear) ground. Far more valid and valuable - in my view - would be to defend choices of equipment or strategies based on one's own experiences. It is true that just about every single tuba ever made eventually ends up being sold, but that's also true for a whole lot of other types of things, even including meat that's turning from red to gray.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[tylerferris1213]

If I didn't use 3 instead of 12 for A on my CC tuba, I would experiment with having a french "two-step" third valve. For all intents and purposes, 3 is redundant when it's a step and a half.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

Just that it's the same name-dropping rhetoric technique as when I stated that I've never observed that any different >> tuba << mouthpipe tube significantly altering >> relative << intonation characteristics, and then Lawson's and Schilke's (supposed, as there were no quotations offered forth, though - admittedly - I've read their stuff) claims that they might possibly alter tuning characteristics on instruments (whereby those instruments are considerably shorter and epically smaller/narrower, and those mouthpipes are a significantly larger percentage of the lengths of their instruments of expertise) was offered forth appear to be some sort of significant rebuttal, rather than referring to one one's own experiences regarding changing out tuba mouthpipes and the intonation affects observed. (I don't deny in the least that different mouthpipe tapers can affect feel and levels of control of certain aspects of playing.)

In summary, I'd be a lot more interested in "bloke is wrong, because I, dents-be-gone (yes, even though anonymous), have personally have observed" rather than "bloke is wrong because Lawson/Schilke claimed or Baer did".

Further, first-person rebuttals to things that I claim to have consistantly observed would actually be respected (again: anonymity aside).. and respected a lot.
I don't buy into degrees, certification, groupthink, settled science, stature/celebrity, or consenses defining that something is true or correct or necessarily the best tack. I understand the mindset of elitism. Since so many people only have experienced me through typing into text boxes, some could confuse me for being some sort of elitist, but I believe they need to stand next to me while I'm buffing sousaphone bells in order to get a more correct impression.