basstrombasso
- bloke
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Re: basstrombasso
I grabbed an hour or so this afternoon (felt OK...grandkids gone...etc.) and got the #3 circuit taken care of.
I got the lower slide lined up several days ago, but the upper was off of parallel (on an only two inch long slide) by a half millimeter.
UMI had put a solid brace in there, and (obviously) didn't/don't build with enough precision to get away with doing that.
Well...the upper slide would slide in and out, but - well - if I'm building something for myself, I want something better than what Jinbao (etc.) might produce...even if it is somewhat of a gadgety type of instrument. ("If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right."..etc...)
I salvaged a couple of the slide tubing size socket flanges (from removed braces which formerly braced the valveset to the bugle) and made a three-piece which did the trick. I believe I ended up finding an alignment point between the inside slide tubes of something like 1.191"...and messed with the tuning slide bow until it accommodated that dimension.
There is also a small one-piece brace - that braces this upper #3 slide over to the #2 slide - that came into play, but I was able to shift that enough and re-bend its flanges to make everything look right.
I'll probably do the #4 circuit (should be easy) tomorrow, and I might even add some bracing between the circuits (to add strength, as - again - there's no longer a baritone horn body supporting this valveset). I seriously doubt if I'll get the mouthpipe and micro-tuning auxiliary main slide installed, but - once this valveset is all put together properly - the "fun" part begins, as everything so far has been drudgery (drudgery: ie. fixing a really messed up bass trombone bell section, fixing up a messed up bass trombone slide, make the two different brands of bell and slide fit each other, fix up a beat-to-crap valveset, etc...)
admission:
I worked too damn long (or started too late, or both) on this #3 circuit today. I did complete repairing, reinstalling the #3 circuit, but not until 4:30 P.M. and I had a brass prelude (double scale) which began at 5:45 P.M., the place was 50 minutes away, and they had asked us to be there at 5:25.
Thankfully, I didn't need shower. I'm not going to discuss how fast I drove on roads which were covered with ice just yesterday, but I was in my seat with the tuba and euphonium (euphonium was for Dick Webster arrs.' bass trombone parts) unpacked and oiled up at the agreed-upon time.
I bought enough inside/outside slide tubing (.562" bore) from Conn-Selmer to completely re-tube this thing, but (as I've been working on it), I've found that it's easy enough (with slide tubing this small) to repair it quite nicely (lots of careless and/or malicious dents, but - again - the price was right) rather than replacing it.
I got the lower slide lined up several days ago, but the upper was off of parallel (on an only two inch long slide) by a half millimeter.
UMI had put a solid brace in there, and (obviously) didn't/don't build with enough precision to get away with doing that.
Well...the upper slide would slide in and out, but - well - if I'm building something for myself, I want something better than what Jinbao (etc.) might produce...even if it is somewhat of a gadgety type of instrument. ("If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right."..etc...)
I salvaged a couple of the slide tubing size socket flanges (from removed braces which formerly braced the valveset to the bugle) and made a three-piece which did the trick. I believe I ended up finding an alignment point between the inside slide tubes of something like 1.191"...and messed with the tuning slide bow until it accommodated that dimension.
There is also a small one-piece brace - that braces this upper #3 slide over to the #2 slide - that came into play, but I was able to shift that enough and re-bend its flanges to make everything look right.
I'll probably do the #4 circuit (should be easy) tomorrow, and I might even add some bracing between the circuits (to add strength, as - again - there's no longer a baritone horn body supporting this valveset). I seriously doubt if I'll get the mouthpipe and micro-tuning auxiliary main slide installed, but - once this valveset is all put together properly - the "fun" part begins, as everything so far has been drudgery (drudgery: ie. fixing a really messed up bass trombone bell section, fixing up a messed up bass trombone slide, make the two different brands of bell and slide fit each other, fix up a beat-to-crap valveset, etc...)
admission:
I worked too damn long (or started too late, or both) on this #3 circuit today. I did complete repairing, reinstalling the #3 circuit, but not until 4:30 P.M. and I had a brass prelude (double scale) which began at 5:45 P.M., the place was 50 minutes away, and they had asked us to be there at 5:25.
Thankfully, I didn't need shower. I'm not going to discuss how fast I drove on roads which were covered with ice just yesterday, but I was in my seat with the tuba and euphonium (euphonium was for Dick Webster arrs.' bass trombone parts) unpacked and oiled up at the agreed-upon time.
I bought enough inside/outside slide tubing (.562" bore) from Conn-Selmer to completely re-tube this thing, but (as I've been working on it), I've found that it's easy enough (with slide tubing this small) to repair it quite nicely (lots of careless and/or malicious dents, but - again - the price was right) rather than replacing it.
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- the elephant (Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:01 pm)
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Re: basstrombasso
I hope this works...(ie. is out of the way of "stuff")
I spent a bit longer sticking the 4th circuit on to this valveset than I had planned (over two hours...) because - at the last minute - I decided to "flip" it.
The 5th/6th rotors are going to be a challenge to shoehorn onto this thing (along with the right hand main slide trigger) so I decided to shove all of the 4th circuit stuff UNDER the pistons, rather than both under AND OVER them. (Also, the right hand position determines that the peg - which will rest on the chair seat - will extend below the large lower #4 loop, so this - hopefully - will be cool.)
Here's what the oem 4th circuit looks like on the King baritone:
...and here's what I decided to do instead.
(...and I had to do some re-bending of that big upper - now: lower - loop, but it wasn't too difficult)
It actually feels pretty solid, but it's going to need considerably more bracing.
...so is it beginning to look more interesting, or no...??
I spent a bit longer sticking the 4th circuit on to this valveset than I had planned (over two hours...) because - at the last minute - I decided to "flip" it.
The 5th/6th rotors are going to be a challenge to shoehorn onto this thing (along with the right hand main slide trigger) so I decided to shove all of the 4th circuit stuff UNDER the pistons, rather than both under AND OVER them. (Also, the right hand position determines that the peg - which will rest on the chair seat - will extend below the large lower #4 loop, so this - hopefully - will be cool.)
Here's what the oem 4th circuit looks like on the King baritone:
...and here's what I decided to do instead.
(...and I had to do some re-bending of that big upper - now: lower - loop, but it wasn't too difficult)
It actually feels pretty solid, but it's going to need considerably more bracing.
...so is it beginning to look more interesting, or no...??
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Re: basstrombasso
The kicker in all of this is that if you DID NOT do the right thing…
… you have the skills, experience, and tools to completely change it, unlike most people here.
I feel sort of "blessed" when I discover that something I built turned out to be not quite to my liking, but then realize that it doesn't really matter because I can keep messing with stuff until it *is* to my liking. This realization makes me smile every time.
… you have the skills, experience, and tools to completely change it, unlike most people here.
I feel sort of "blessed" when I discover that something I built turned out to be not quite to my liking, but then realize that it doesn't really matter because I can keep messing with stuff until it *is* to my liking. This realization makes me smile every time.
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- bloke (Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:18 am)
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Re: basstrombasso
I guess you're right.. but I would like to get through this project and get that sousaphone stuck together for Mardi Gras (though - in early spring - I don't guess it's going to be difficult to find a sousaphone to borrow)
It's sort of easy to tell where tubas are going to go.
With the Holton B-flat, I didn't even formulate a plan, because I just figured it would work out.
Just like with the other cimbasso thing, this is total freestyling, and it's a little bit more difficult to pre-imagine in my head. I believe (??) That I can tell that I'm going to have to clock the valveset off to the right quite a few degrees, in order to meet my right hand at a comfortable angle.
...In the meantime, everyone is asking us to un-destroy their concert instruments, yet they've spent all their money ($$$,$$$ - as is obvious) on marching band.
It's sort of easy to tell where tubas are going to go.
With the Holton B-flat, I didn't even formulate a plan, because I just figured it would work out.
Just like with the other cimbasso thing, this is total freestyling, and it's a little bit more difficult to pre-imagine in my head. I believe (??) That I can tell that I'm going to have to clock the valveset off to the right quite a few degrees, in order to meet my right hand at a comfortable angle.
...In the meantime, everyone is asking us to un-destroy their concert instruments, yet they've spent all their money ($$$,$$$ - as is obvious) on marching band.
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Re: basstrombasso
I've got some stuff that people expect me to repair for them by the end of the first week of January. I think I'm going to screw around with that stuff for a few days.
========
I just sent an email off to a friend who might have at least one or possibly several junk King 625/627/2266/2268 baritones. I'm going to ask him if he has any of those small brace socket flanges on any of those junk instruments that match those on this valveset, so I don't have to take some of the larger ones that I still have and cut them down to match. It's just less trouble if somebody has some stuff they can sell me that's factory cut. I'm also looking for some of these 20-year-old slightly barrel-shaped OEM King baritone piston springs. They are just perfect for these valves.. better than Yamaha springs for these particular valves.
The tuning slide ferrules are actually slightly different I.D. from the outside slide tubing, and are tedious to make. I've already had to make one or two of them. I'm hoping my friend can sell me some of that stuff too, so I can just pull them off of smushed slides, instead of making them.
bloke "conflicted: industrious, yet lazy"
========
I just sent an email off to a friend who might have at least one or possibly several junk King 625/627/2266/2268 baritones. I'm going to ask him if he has any of those small brace socket flanges on any of those junk instruments that match those on this valveset, so I don't have to take some of the larger ones that I still have and cut them down to match. It's just less trouble if somebody has some stuff they can sell me that's factory cut. I'm also looking for some of these 20-year-old slightly barrel-shaped OEM King baritone piston springs. They are just perfect for these valves.. better than Yamaha springs for these particular valves.
The tuning slide ferrules are actually slightly different I.D. from the outside slide tubing, and are tedious to make. I've already had to make one or two of them. I'm hoping my friend can sell me some of that stuff too, so I can just pull them off of smushed slides, instead of making them.
bloke "conflicted: industrious, yet lazy"
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Re: basstrombasso
This mouthpipe might end up in the trash, but it seems (??) as though it might work out...
Anyway, I had to start with somethin'...
Also (if I end up building something playable and manage to learn how to play it), I really don't care for the type of bass trombone playing whereby someone (such as a bass trombone player showing off in a big band, etc.) attempts to drown out the trumpets, drums, and the entire band with a "buzz saw" type of resonance. My goal (if achieved?) is to be able to offer a marketable bass trombone sound in quintet arrangements, and no-tuba (in order to remain on the payroll for such concerts) orchestral works - few of which tend to call for "bombastic" bass trombone playing. If (??) someone asks me to sit in with a "big band" (typically $0.00 to token pay), they'll get what they will get.
Anyway, I had to start with somethin'...
Luckily for me, I don't buy into the "tortuous bends" rhetoric, nor the "air flow" rhetoric (particularly as we pinch out lips together tightly - attempting to PREVENT air from escaping, and then blow though a little hole that's only 1/5th the area of the bore of the valve section or playing slide.Hey bloke, How do you expect a bass trombone type of instrument to blow freely with all of those tight turns?
Also (if I end up building something playable and manage to learn how to play it), I really don't care for the type of bass trombone playing whereby someone (such as a bass trombone player showing off in a big band, etc.) attempts to drown out the trumpets, drums, and the entire band with a "buzz saw" type of resonance. My goal (if achieved?) is to be able to offer a marketable bass trombone sound in quintet arrangements, and no-tuba (in order to remain on the payroll for such concerts) orchestral works - few of which tend to call for "bombastic" bass trombone playing. If (??) someone asks me to sit in with a "big band" (typically $0.00 to token pay), they'll get what they will get.
- bloke
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Re: basstrombasso
I asked a friend - who has "stuff" - if they had a hopeless King baritone with brace feet that match the style I'm using (along with one vintage valve spring - as the three oem valve springs on this valveset feel "just right").
They included this note with the picture:
They included this note with the picture:
This is my 51st year in this business, and I could count the people on one hand I would do this for. You would have made the cut even if I'd have lost 2 fingers over the years.
Merry Christmas!
Parts coming no charge and free shipping.
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Re: basstrombasso
I was going to use two Fullerton-Olds rotors (tight/well-made/desired .562" bore size) but they don't match cosmetically (same model/different decades)...
...so I started scrounging for two MATCHING .562" bore rotors.
I found two NEW Bach 42/36/Mercedes/Omega/TB200B/etc. F attachment rotor casings, two used rotor bodies, two used rotor bearings, and two used rotor caps that all fit together.
I found other similar parts, but these two will require the least amount of fitting/lapping - as none of the parts originally mated.
This is a real b.s. diagram of how I'm hoping the thing might go together...We'll see...
As far as the tubing, slide bows, and slide tubing for the two rotor circuits, the harvested Fullerton-Olds stuff should do quite nicely.
I have started measuring the length of the playing slide, and the length of this contraption - to see how many inches I've consumed, and how many I have left to work with.
...so I started scrounging for two MATCHING .562" bore rotors.
I found two NEW Bach 42/36/Mercedes/Omega/TB200B/etc. F attachment rotor casings, two used rotor bodies, two used rotor bearings, and two used rotor caps that all fit together.
I found other similar parts, but these two will require the least amount of fitting/lapping - as none of the parts originally mated.
This is a real b.s. diagram of how I'm hoping the thing might go together...We'll see...
As far as the tubing, slide bows, and slide tubing for the two rotor circuits, the harvested Fullerton-Olds stuff should do quite nicely.
I have started measuring the length of the playing slide, and the length of this contraption - to see how many inches I've consumed, and how many I have left to work with.
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Re: basstrombasso
I am doing this to my old King euph. (Mine is better though, as it is SILVER PLATED, and we all know that this adds at least five horsepower and three MPG.)
I think I am going to fully flesh out your idea of using 5th and 6th as the 1st and 2nd of the horn with the 4th down (in this case placing it in F) and add a 7th to give me a proper three-valve set in F to use in combination with the 4th being down.
Wade "why TF not" Rackley
I think I am going to fully flesh out your idea of using 5th and 6th as the 1st and 2nd of the horn with the 4th down (in this case placing it in F) and add a 7th to give me a proper three-valve set in F to use in combination with the 4th being down.
Wade "why TF not" Rackley
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Re: basstrombasso
I actually have a Bauerfeind 3-piston .562" bore set, but it just doesn't seem as though it would work (what's that cool word...??) "ergonomically". Also, I just don't think I'd use a 7th valve (six seems to do quite nicely on my F tuba - particularly with my #5 r.h. thumb trigger), and I wouldn't want to chop up a nice Bauerfeind set, either.the elephant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:58 am I am doing this to my old King euph. (Mine is better though, as it is SILVER PLATED, and we all know that this adds at least five horsepower and three MPG.)
I think I am going to fully flesh out your idea of using 5th and 6th as the 1st and 2nd of the horn with the 4th down (in this case placing it in F) and add a 7th to give me a proper three-valve set in F to use in combination with the 4th being down.
Wade "why TF not" Rackley
All of that having been said, I do have a third Bach Strad/etc. .562" rotor in decent shape, but...(per above).
@the elephant
Have you ever tried one of these with the "swivel" feature?
I'm wondering about it..
(In my "stuff" - somewhere - I believe I have one of the simpler-system ones...bought - pre-Buffet - from B&S.)
https://shop.voigt-brass.de/en/B2B/THUM ... -ball.html
...I can't help but wonder if the extra adjustment might (??) be handy, as this valveset is going to need to be clocked to the right (here's that cool word, again) for "ergonomic" considerations. (That having been said, it sorta breaks the blokerule - particularly when there's already a simpler-system one, around here somewhere - of "trying to avoid buying expensive stuff from Europe or other boutique-y places when building projects".
semi-pertinent, but not particularly to this post:
I also just stumbled across these two high-quality/good-condition mismatched .562" rotors (in addition to the others)...One seems to be a vintage/Elkhart Conn bass trombone rotor, and the other is a Miraphone (plain - no engraving)...They are very similar, though one is nickel and one is brass (the nickel one could be a candidate for - if the instrument were ever enhanced with a finish) Nikolas brass-colored metal-flake lacquer additive)...Neither needs to be lapped, which would be a plus.
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Re: basstrombasso
Ergonomic: does not cause long-term physical pain due to a jackass design.
Very important for many people.
You know, folks without allergies are ignorant enough of what that is like to make fun of sufferers. Some are even stupid enough to tell you to get over it and stop sniffling because it annoys them that you make all this noise, obviously — to them — on purpose. They can't seem to understand the situation of others, and it is pretty annoying and (there that word) DISAPPOINTiNG that they do stuff like this, even in jest.
Because it is never appropriate or funny.
Have a good day.
Wade "also dislikes sh¡t-talkers when playing basketball" Rackley
Very important for many people.
You know, folks without allergies are ignorant enough of what that is like to make fun of sufferers. Some are even stupid enough to tell you to get over it and stop sniffling because it annoys them that you make all this noise, obviously — to them — on purpose. They can't seem to understand the situation of others, and it is pretty annoying and (there that word) DISAPPOINTiNG that they do stuff like this, even in jest.
Because it is never appropriate or funny.
Have a good day.
Wade "also dislikes sh¡t-talkers when playing basketball" Rackley
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Re: basstrombasso
yeah...I understand "ergonomics"...but "good design" is only three syllables.
I wasn't mocking "ergonomics", but only mocking the word.
"good design" is why I'm probably going to be clocking this valveset quite a few degrees towards my right side.
I don't like being distracted by a piece's of machinery shortcomings, when striving to make music.
I wasn't mocking "ergonomics", but only mocking the word.
"good design" is why I'm probably going to be clocking this valveset quite a few degrees towards my right side.
I don't like being distracted by a piece's of machinery shortcomings, when striving to make music.
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Re: basstrombasso
Did we ever get resolution on this? I think you've said you've been playing it, but we never saw the final pix? Or maybe I tuned out for a while. I'd love to hear it as well, if you can give us a sample...
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Re: basstrombasso
I'ven playinig it as a (slide) bass trombone a little bit (trying to find 5th position...LOL), but I haven't finished the valveset beyond the four valves and their (completed) circuits. I've had a bunch of repair work to come in, finances are a bit lean, and we need to money more than I need this fun instrument.
Sadly, I would have LOVED using it on Christmas Eve (into very early Christmas morning), Easter, and on a Dvorak 7 concert.
> church gigs - euphonium
> Dvorak - F cimbasso...worked out fine, but still...
...
A couple of weeks ago, I ACTUALLY put the completed bass trombone, the 4 valve "completed" valves/circuits, and all the rest of the parts on a table IN THE GREAT ROOM OF THE HOUSE - so I would SEE this thing EVERY DAY.
Sadly, I would have LOVED using it on Christmas Eve (into very early Christmas morning), Easter, and on a Dvorak 7 concert.
> church gigs - euphonium
> Dvorak - F cimbasso...worked out fine, but still...
...
A couple of weeks ago, I ACTUALLY put the completed bass trombone, the 4 valve "completed" valves/circuits, and all the rest of the parts on a table IN THE GREAT ROOM OF THE HOUSE - so I would SEE this thing EVERY DAY.
Last edited by bloke on Thu Apr 27, 2023 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: basstrombasso
Yeah, 5th position is out there somewhere. That's what the Gb indy valve is for.
Anyway, I'll just stay tuned about the valve section.
Anyway, I'll just stay tuned about the valve section.
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Re: basstrombasso
I'm staying busy with repairs, haven't cut the grass on the property all summer (endless rains, mower repairs, epic piles of repairs, and - now - gigs), but I'm TRYING to circle back to this project.
A stumbling block was that I boxed myself into a corner.
ORIGINALLY, I had TWO of those California Olds duo-bore bass trombone playing slides:
- a good/repairable one (that I used for this project)
- a FUBAR one (from which I was going to harvest the male slide connector - for the valve section)
OK...I went upstairs to get the other playing slide, and could only find REMNANTS (which means that - some time in the past - I already took it apart and used stuff to repair other instruments...and NO SIGN of that Olds male connector.
I have OTHER bass trombone male connectors (Holton, Bach, Conn...) but (though one or two are sorta close and might "make do") NONE are a match...
...I could make most of the part on my crappy lathe, but (admission) I'm not "wonderful" with threading...and - in particular - I'm not "wonderful" with custom threading (special tpi, special pitch, etc.)...so - rather than having my ego rule the day - I'm sending the one that I have off to an amazing bassoon wizard/machinist to copy this part for me. His name is James Keyes. He's 80-something years old, and his shop is so very specialized that he has a machine devoted to every individual thing he does to repair/customize bassoons - so he never has to change out the primary fixtures set up on each machine.
I'll likely have this part back from him PDQ and then I can (at least) think about going forward with this project...(dumb to go forward without a part that's absolutely essential, yes?)
A stumbling block was that I boxed myself into a corner.
ORIGINALLY, I had TWO of those California Olds duo-bore bass trombone playing slides:
- a good/repairable one (that I used for this project)
- a FUBAR one (from which I was going to harvest the male slide connector - for the valve section)
OK...I went upstairs to get the other playing slide, and could only find REMNANTS (which means that - some time in the past - I already took it apart and used stuff to repair other instruments...and NO SIGN of that Olds male connector.
I have OTHER bass trombone male connectors (Holton, Bach, Conn...) but (though one or two are sorta close and might "make do") NONE are a match...
...I could make most of the part on my crappy lathe, but (admission) I'm not "wonderful" with threading...and - in particular - I'm not "wonderful" with custom threading (special tpi, special pitch, etc.)...so - rather than having my ego rule the day - I'm sending the one that I have off to an amazing bassoon wizard/machinist to copy this part for me. His name is James Keyes. He's 80-something years old, and his shop is so very specialized that he has a machine devoted to every individual thing he does to repair/customize bassoons - so he never has to change out the primary fixtures set up on each machine.
I'll likely have this part back from him PDQ and then I can (at least) think about going forward with this project...(dumb to go forward without a part that's absolutely essential, yes?)
Last edited by bloke on Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: basstrombasso
That would be well worth hearing.the elephant wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:14 pm...........Perhaps one day we could play some duets on our two minibassi?
Principal tuba, Bel Air Community Band
Old (early 1900s?) Alexander BBb proto-163
1976 Sonora (B&S 101) 4-rotor BBb
1964 Conn 20J/21J BBb (one body, both bells)
1970s Marzan Slant-rotor BBb
~1904 York 3P BBb Helicon
Old Alex Comp.F, in shop
Old (early 1900s?) Alexander BBb proto-163
1976 Sonora (B&S 101) 4-rotor BBb
1964 Conn 20J/21J BBb (one body, both bells)
1970s Marzan Slant-rotor BBb
~1904 York 3P BBb Helicon
Old Alex Comp.F, in shop
- bloke
- Mid South Music
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Re: basstrombasso
Send out some Happy Thanksgiving vibes to my friend...
I'd like to resume this project fairly soon, but I'd like to have the male connector (for the valve section) prior to resuming these efforts.
My lathe prowess is fairly basic. I might be able to do a decent job of chunking out the exterior - and possibly even boring it...but any attempt - by me - to duplicate those threads would be crap.
I'd like to resume this project fairly soon, but I'd like to have the male connector (for the valve section) prior to resuming these efforts.
My lathe prowess is fairly basic. I might be able to do a decent job of chunking out the exterior - and possibly even boring it...but any attempt - by me - to duplicate those threads would be crap.
- bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19290
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3841 times
- Been thanked: 4088 times