"I'm getting older, and looking for a smaller tuba, but I still want four valves"

[Charlie C Chowder]

I am that old fat guy playing a 30 lb. BAT. I just played our TC here in Portland yesterday. I have a very active row at TC and need to put my BAT down and pick it up several times to help. My secret is a tuba stand. I never need to lift both my fat body and the Bat at the same time. I don't need to share the limited space of the folding chair with the BAT. And I can sit near the front of the chair instead of slouching on the back of the chair. I also have a large semirigid tool bag with wheels and a long handle that carries all that I need from my car to wherever and back. Someday I may need a cute little French horn player to help me, but not yet.

As always, lots of ladies wanted pictures with me.

CCC

[donn]

Carbon fiber comes unglued.

For car body panels, they of course use a glue that works, and bag and weight the joint while it cures, but also when attaching fixtures they run a peg through, bringing some glue through with it. A problematic large joint might lock in better with some rivets done in that manner. Polypropylene presumably has the same problem, as it resists any solvent I know that you might use to effect a "weld" bond.

[The Big Ben]

As always, lots of ladies wanted pictures with me.

I did not play a TC this year but, in the past, I have walked through the crowd afterwards and had women ask to see my tuba and hold it. There was no personal caressing involved but they were surprised that it didn't weigh as much as they thought it would. They wanted to pose for pictures with it and i accommodated them. Yes, I was in the picture also.

[The Big Ben]

both have 4 valves, but if I had to, I could manage with a small three valve tuba like a yamaha 103 that had either a

Tom McGrady sells a 3/4 BBb roughly based on a Yamaha 103 plus a valve:
https://mackbrass.com/tu422l-3%2F4-bbb-tuba

[LeMark]

True, I don't know the price difference between that and the Packer 179b, but I do know the Packer is a great tuba. Big fan.

I also trust Tom to sell only the Jin bao products that actually work well

[bloke]

It's certainly true that some of the cheapest-made Chinese stuff "plays" better than some of the other cheapest stuff...
...but I've not found that any of it consistently works better than any of the other.

new prototypes of the cheapest stuff - taken to shows:
If someone LIKES a prototype, they should ask if it might be for sale.
It ain't gonna be, 'cause it's probably put together slowly/carefully.

I've thought that some of the McBrass "zo" stuff was pretty good.

[bort2.0]

I need to find a cost-efficient way to change 50-100 year old tubas from 3 valves to 4 valves, sounds like there's a market for them.

A lot of medium/small older tubas out there, but limited by 3 valves. I've enjoyed mine tremendously, but I badly want a 4th valve.

Side note: I'm always concerned with projection, and "being heard." Was wondering how it would go with the Martin Medium Eb at TubaChristmas, given the large group size. Had a great time playing it, and played the snot out of it (and played it well), but never particularly thought it was "loud." Later heard part of a recording... yep, there I am...

Just need a 4th valve and I'll be happier than Santa on Dec 26th.

[The Big Ben]

I need to find a cost-efficient way to change 50-100 year old tubas from 3 valves to 4 valves, sounds like there's a market for them.

A valve stuck somewhere other than after the third valve could be done- like some of the Eb and Euphs with the fourth valve sticking out the side. Or a rotary valve stuck somewhere and a paddle somewhere near the thumb ring. Art Hovey has an example of how he did it on his page.

[bloke]

@bort2.0

The #4 circuit, valve, and (if rotary) linkage (as a set of components) is probably THE SINGLE heaviest part of a 4-valve tuba.



....I'm noticing that one one is waving the Czech flag in support of my suggestion of these 17.5-yet-large and well-enough-made tubas.

[matt g]

both have 4 valves, but if I had to, I could manage with a small three valve tuba like a yamaha 103 that had either a

Tom McGrady sells a 3/4 BBb roughly based on a Yamaha 103 plus a valve:
https://mackbrass.com/tu422l-3%2F4-bbb-tuba

I know his ad copy says YBB-103, but that horn has a tuning slide before the valve block. The Mack Brass horn is a copy of the YBB-621.

[donn]

....I'm noticing that one one is waving the Czech flag in support of my suggestion of these 17.5-yet-large and well-enough-made tubas.

I've liked the Czech tubas I've played. Currently the 681 lists at Thomann for €5290 ($5878) or somewhat less for B stock, and is nowadays 20 ½ lbs (9.3 kg.) Their 783 / Arion looks like the same thing wrapped "piggy" style and is only 19 lbs. Don't know how obtainable in the US.

[LeMark]

@bort2.0

The #4 circuit, valve, and (if rotary) linkage (as a set of components) is probably THE SINGLE heaviest part of a 4-valve tuba.



....I'm noticing that one one is waving the Czech flag in support of my suggestion of these 17.5-yet-large and well-enough-made tubas.

I recently got a to play a room full of new cerveny tubas. All of them had intonation problems, even the ones that were classic designs.

I'll stick to the 35 year old ones, thanks

or the 379b, which is a better copy of a cerveny design

[DonO.]

Every old guy has a different answer for this problem. The “perfect” small, light, awesome sounding 4 valve tuba. Obviously made out of unobtainium.

As a fellow old guy, I found my answer with the King 2341. Is it light? Not particularly, but certainly lighter than some- between 21 and 22 pounds. Compact? Not that either, since it has a fairly open wrap. But it could be heavier, it could be bulkier, and it has excellent plug and play intonation, and super easy to fill .687 bore. It has everything I need and nothing I don’t. I worry about 22 pounds and open wrap being too much to handle someday, but that’s not yet.

I did also buy my little Kanstul 3/4 size 3 banger used, intending for it to be a TubaChristmas/jazz gig (if any)/outdoor/Dixieland (if any)/German (if any)/etc. horn. It is a fun to play horn. Don’t know the weight. In the teens, that’s all I would guess. Little bigger bore than the King (.689), but light, nimble, easy playing. Some former owner “hot rodded” it with hugely extended 1st and 3rd upper slides, so they can be pulled quite a bit. Still, I wish I had the 4th valve just because I’m used to it. I wish a 4 valve one would come up for sale, but you never see them.

The recommendation of a Cerveny 681 is a pretty good one. I used to have the Amati version of the same thing. Damn good horn. Often wish I never sold it. But at the time I thought I was done with tuba.

All of the above are BBb of course. I’ve never played anything else beyond the “fooling around” stage.

[scottw]

I think the title should read " I'm getting older, and looking for a lighter tuba, but I still want four valves"....

M-I-R-A-F-O-N-E 186....

Absolutely right! I remember weighing my 1972 MiraFONE [not PHONE] years ago and IIRC, it came in at around 15 lbs. I, too, usually help a band mate [who is in his 80's and uses a walker], by carrying it in and out of his car and setting it up next to his seat. He plays a Meinl-Weston 4-valve and it is just so much heavier than my horn, despite being virtually identical in size and volume of sound produced.
It is not weight nor ergonomics that is causing me to look for another horn, but key: I want to simplify my brain with only one set of fingerings rattling around in my 77 yo head. Otherwise, I'd happily play the 186 till they kick me out.
scottw

[jtm]

My Mirafone 188 (with long 5th valve) sounds like a full size tuba, but it's pushing 20.5 pounds. It handles really nicely, though, with a really compact wrap.

An older 5 valve CC 186 has to be 18 pounds or less, right?

I have an F tuba that doesn't sound like a 186, but it's serviceable, a lot of fun, and not quite 17 pounds. I'll likely keep it a while.

[bloke]

If you spend more time with that particular tuba, you can figure out how to make it sound like a 186...if you choose to do so.

This is not a "Hey, I can" post, but an "I'm certain that you can" post.

[Wally]

I’m 67 and a bit porky. Mr. Arthur Itis is gradually invading my bones. Thankfully i am still able to handle my three tubas and two string basses! (Certainly not on the same job!) my biggest tuba is my 5/4 Rudy Meinl CC. Next comes my beloved 60’s era Mirafone 186 BBb. Finally i have a YEB 321 EEb. All wear Chronkite bags which I carry backpack style. The Rudy is quite a load, but i’m in love with the sound of it. All things considered (weight, playability, tone, etc.) I consider the 186 to be the perfect tuba. It really isn’t significantly heavier than the EEb. The original poster might want to check out one of the bags or cases with wheels. I have friends who use them and like them. Good luck and keep the faith!

[bloke]

My brother is 80, has had surgery on his neck, back, knees, and hips (crappy skeleton like my mother, rather than being built like an ogre as am I). He keeps his weight down, and he still does all of his own automobile repairs. He says that - just like Clint Eastwood - he's "not letting the old man in". I don't claim that everyone can grit their teeth and be like my brother, but most could keep their weight down, if they really decided to, even though that might not solve any of their problems regarding being able to lift additional weight.
I got rid of my extra weight a few years ago and either ended up with some really big multiple hernias afterwards (lifting stuff) or maybe they were cloaked due to all the weight beforehand...(??) I tended to eat a bunch of carbs after the surgery to make elimination easier (as I don't really know it another way to put that), and I've gained some of it back, but I'm on my way back down. I have one tuba that is huge, but it is only about 23 or 24 lbs., because it's handmade. The case and modest amount of gear - though - weighs nearly 35 lbs., because it's gigantic and stout. There's just no way that I'm putting a thin giant expensive tuba and a sack to carry it around. I'm dealing with it. I might not be able to toss it up in the air and slide it right in the car like I could when I was 25, but - even then - stuff like that wasn't the absolute easiest thing to do. Now I'm figuring out smarter ways to lift heavy things by not supporting all of something's weight at the same time. I don't need to hear any "yeah buts", because I know there are some people who just can't - and for all sorts of reasons, but I believe that a few people can, and don't need to sell their instruments and buy others (maybe even at a loss) that might not be as much fun to play.

The tone of this post is meant to be encouraging, and not at all scolding.

[Rick Denney]

Carbon fiber comes unglued.

That's like saying brass comes unsoldered. Which it does, if 1.) you wait long enough, and 2.) it wasn't soldered very well in the first place.

Gluing plastic requires using the correct glue, and for carbon-composites that means good-quality epoxy. That includes the binder, not just the adhesive at the joints.

Now, as to what the difference is between "plastic" and "carbon fiber". The original meaning of "plastic", which is still relevant in metallurgy, is a material behavior where strain under load is not released linearly when the load is removed. It's the alternative to "elastic", which means that strain under load is linear with stress and when the stress is removed the strain remains linear with stress. (Strain is how much a material moves under stress, and stress is the load divided by the effective area of the material cross section at right angles to the load.) This is the opposite of what people think it means--they think a rubber band is elastic, when they have a lot of plastic properties. Steel springs are highly elastic, and when you compress one it returns efficiently (meaning, without producing heat) to its original shape. If you stress steel enough, it becomes plastic--usually noticed by staying deformed after the stress is removed. In the plastic region, steel gets hot as it is worked and eventually fails from fatigue. Brass has similar properties, but with much lower stress required to move it from elastic to plastic.

When most people use the word plastic, they really mean synthetic polymers--long-chain hydrocarbons that link together to make a solid material. Some polymers melt when hot, and some just burn when hot. The latter have to be formed before the hydrocarbons cure (think: Bakelite; see below for epoxy). Most plastics people see these days are thermoplastic--they get more plastic (melt) as they get hotter. PVC, polyethylene, polyester, polycarbonate (Lexan), polypropylene--all these are thermoplastic.

Epoxy is a polymer (polyepoxide) that is a thermoset--it does not melt with heat but burns first. (It will release its adhesion long before it burns, however.) Epoxy is heavily cross-linked--the polymer chains tie to each other in all directions tightly. That makes it much stronger than most plastics used in consumer goods. But it's also brittle, which is why it works best with reinforcement.

The main problem with plastic is that it is...plastic. When stressed, it deforms, and long-term stress usually results in permanent deformation called creep. And the most rigid polymers like epoxy are rather brittle. This is where reinforcement comes in. The traditional reinforcement for plastic is glass fibers, which are usually embedded in a plastic resin made from polyester. Polyester is pretty weak as plastics go, but it's strong enough if the structure is appropriately designed. Glass-reinforced polyester is, of course, called fiberglass. Note that the polyester resin used in most fiberglass includes a hardener that imparts some thermosetting properties making it less susceptible to melting.

Carbon fibers are about 25% stronger than glass fibers, but the density of carbon fiber material is about two-thirds of glass of the same dimensions. So, these two attributes combined mean that carbon fibers have a strength-to-weight ration about twice that of glass fibers.

Some plastics can be dissolved using a solvent, and can therefore be welded together using a solvent. These joints are as strong as any weld in a metal. PVC is an example, and when used in plumbing is joined using solvent adhesives. ABS is another example. Waxy plastics like polyethylene don't solvent-weld easily, but all thermoplastic materials can be welded just like metal by melting them together, often with some filler material. I've welded polyethylene tanks using filler rods made from cut-up similar tanks and a hot-air plastic welder or even a big soldering iron. But thermosets like epoxy can't be welded either using heat or solvents, so the only way to join them is using epoxy as a glue. Here's where design comes in--the surface of the carbon fiber needs to have enough tooth to mechanically interlock with the epoxy used to glue the parts together. And carbon composites bond well to metals using epoxy, too--at least as well as low-temperature solder. Low-temperature solder joints have a lot of overlap because of that, and so should epoxy joints.

A carbon-fiber tuba can therefore be lighter than a fiberglass tuba of the same strength, and if the joints are properly designed, it will resist abuse and age better than brass for dent resistance and at least as good for adhesion.

My Martin TB-31 fiberglass tuba is close to the same size as a new-style King 2341. Here it is next to my Martin EBB-534, which is a rip-off of the 2341:



Sound-wise, it's a big, round, mellow sound with a lot of warmth. The previous owner of mine was Leonard Jung, and nobody ever complained about his ability to be musical with it. He used this tuba precisely because it was light and he was old and had difficulty with heavier instruments. I think it was Matt Walters who found it for him way back when Matt was working for Dave Fedderly. Note the tuning stick, which is mostly wood and operates the main slide. That was Mr. Jung's tool for dealing with only three valves.

The Martin weighs maybe 9 or 10 pounds.

But Martin (incorrectly) used the polyster resin fiberglass binder as the adhesive for the braces that attach the fiberglass outer branches to each other and to the brass valve body. Those have all let go. When I rebuild it, I'll use epoxy to stick it back together. But the ferrules, which have a lot of overlap in the joints are solidly connected still, 55-60 years after it was made. The bell edge is also damaged, but I think that can all be stabilized with epoxy.

Making this a four-valve tuba probably wouldn't be any more difficult than sticking a valve body from a 2341 or clone onto it, but there might be intended consequences playing-wise. The dog-leg is pretty straight, and a fourth valve could probably be grafted in, even if using the Art Hovey trick of using a rotary valve with a linkage and paddle under the pinky.

Rick "but tain't nobody making these any more" Denney

[bloke]

I've never seen a video of a high-profile/recognizable tuba player clowning around with the a tuba whereby their brass bell fell off.

I've seen that happen to someone with a carbon-fiber bell.
I've had it happen to me (in New Orleans - at a 2nd-line funeral parade) with a fiberglass bell.

Both were factory-attached.

yeah...I suppose you can bleat back, "ANECDOTAL !"

...but brass (after dozens or hundreds of years) can become brittle and crack...or rot...or whatever.
Nothing lasts forever...A whole bunch of 50-year-old fiberglass sousaphones are brittle...and their plastic bell flares are often particularly brittle.
If I owned that (50-60 year old?) fiberglass Martin tuba, I would handle it extremely gingerly.