smooth slurs across a partial - piston valves

[Tim Jackson]

It has been mentioned that players have some difficulty slurring across a partial on tuba. Particularly low Bb to low C on a BBb horn or low C to D on a CC horn. My downward slur across the partial is very smooth, but going back up had a pop or break. I analyzed what was happening while slurring downward with the embouchure and valve movement and reversed the action. Problem solved. For me, it concerns the coordination of valve and embouchure movement. More simply stated, I am starting the upper note at the beginning or top of the valve stroke and not the bottom. A sax player once told me he could identify players by listening to their "touch". To me, the touch on an instrument is the degree of smoothness one commands when moving from one note to another.

Some will argue this is overanalyzing or overthinking. I also admit I "play by feel" quite a bit to solve problems. I do whatever it takes to solve problems and make progress.

paralysis by analysis refers to overthinking a problem to the point that it becomes more difficult to make a decision. Analysis helps me solve problems.
I overthink almost everything including this post!

TJ

[bloke]

This is something that definitely requires player precision when playing the tuba, and the amount of precision required varies from instrument to instrument. The big one that I'm currently playing and own requires the most precision - regarding this - compared to any instrument I've ever owned. Rather than dismissing this instrument and saying that "it slurs badly", I enjoyed stepping up to the challenge and stepping up my own precision in my own playing.
Something I discovered about slurs - when mastering them on this instrument - is that they actually require the player to relax the embouchure (at least, avoid tightening it) in order to execute them nicely on a tuba. (I'm not talking about relaxing the air flow, as that results in an amateurish "wah-wah" effect.) . As long as I stay relaxed there, slurs work just fine, but I do have to be precise with the buzzing frequency (making sure my lips are buzzing in tune) and more precise than with any other instrument I've owned. I believe that a very large part of the attraction of C instruments (beyond college teachers telling their students to buy them) is that they don't quite require the precision - in this aspect of playing - as do comparable B-flat instruments. (I know someone - who has tremendously more cachet than me - who I believe agrees with me wholeheartedly on this C/B-flat thing.)

(I apologize for going off on a B-flat/C tangent at the end.)

[Mary Ann]

I noted in my horn journey that even between horns the timing differed because the valve throw was not identical, and that you have to land on the new pitch the same time the valve motion is complete or risk a clam. I DON'T think this is "over" analysis because it's analysis that is of benefit. I play by feel and sound -- I have to memorize the feel to get the sound.
For me slurring up on a tuba is still quite the problem, both with actual lip strength and timing; the lip strength has to come first. If you're not tiny like I am, lip strength many not be on the radar, but it is for me, and it's not there yet. "Lip strength" comes into play when interrupting that immense amount of air to make the aperture smaller. That takes strength.

[BRS]

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[bloke]

That teaching technique looks to be a very good/valid one, and I see similarities between it and much of what Arnold Jacobs reportedly did, which was to distract the student away from the problem and get them to solve it without actually realizing that they were solving it.

Again (agreed, or no?) the "trick" it to keep air flowing to keep the lips vibrating, but also to avoid tensing up the embouchure muscles when moving from one pitch to the tends-to-bump pitch...and (yeah, I'm being extremely redundant, and sincerely apologize) be accurate with the having-moved-without-tensing-up buzz frequency on which one lands.

golf swing:
Maybe you saw my post, whereby I used "teaching a golf swing" as an analogy.
If a teacher breaks up a golf swing into a bunch of parts (with a bunch of "don'ts") the student's golf swing will end up completely disfunctional, as the student will ALSO break it up into a bunch of parts, and (re: "don't") break it up into disjoint parts PLUS with a bunch of negativity involved.

The "moving on to the third pitch" thing - that you do - is clever (re: smooth golf swing).

[BRS]

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[bloke]

That’s right on. Distraction to achieve uninterrupted flow. The C is just F with the 4th (or 1&3) valve down. Nothing more. Blow through the C whether the F is there or not. Shhhh, don’t tell anyone.

I didn’t see your post, but would like to read it. Where is it?

can't remember...probably not worth it (Most stuff I post is crap, as everyone knows.)

...but - just before hitting "Submit", I remembered the search feature...
My comment has to do with the opposite: poor teaching methods and dysfunctional/negative learning (OK...which has also been mentioned in this thread).

GS.png (53.05 KiB) Viewed 568 times

[BRS]

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[Tim Jackson]

Yes, the golf swing analogy is good, but at the same time it makes me think of this: some players/golfers just want to get by. Bad form allows one to get around the course but a dead-end comes when one's desire becomes mastering the game. Changing everything in one's approach all at once does cause total catastrophe. Most good teachers have learned to work on one little thing at a time.

Pretending to aim for a higher note as mentioned above can give some relief by tricking the mind- but in the end, a player should be flooding the mind with the target pitch.

But, back to the original idea, start moving the valve at the same time you begin moving to the upper note. Or think of it this way: the upper note starts when the valve starts down. Most folks might be playing the upper note when the valve is at the bottom of the stroke. Another description: the upper note begins before the valve is moved. Just work it... maybe you discover something useful.

How to practice this idea: think of the slur as a slow glissando. As the glissando starts upward the valve begins to move. Once you have a smooth gliss, speed up the motion.

Look at all this guy's videos but this is very relevant https://youtu.be/CxiFMlvY3_8?si=9giQif-3jUlp2IaL

Just hoping someone finds this useful.
TJ

[bloke]

That's interesting (and I did listen to him, even though it's a trumpet - whereby trumpets are easier to "slur" than contrabass tubas - just as bass tubas are easier to "slur" vs. contrabass tubas), but (basically) what he's referring to is "practicing for accuracy", which is what we already know to do (whether or not we do it, and whether or not we can transfer "practice for accuracy" to an effective method).

A mechanical approach works - with tremendous repetition and muscle memory - along with tremendous maintenance (and I knew a remarkable trumpet player who played by feel...but he did a two-hour "warm-up" every day - to "remind" himself how everything feels...and I'm just not going to ever do that...at least: not ever again). I find that I get a lot of time-efficient success from keeping my mind's ear constantly working. If I completely know how the next event is supposed to sound, that greatly increases the changes of my body doing what it's supposed to do (the stuff the young man talks about having his muscles do).

If my mind's ear hears an event, a phrase, a movement, or a complete work (and not just my part - but as much of everything else as possible) my muscles (SURE: backed up by practicing...but not weeks' worth) are going to do what needs to be done to produce what my mind's ear hears. (I've avoided the word "imagine/imagines", because most of what we're talking about is stuff that someone wrote down on a piece of paper.)

I never studied with Arnold Jacobs, but I've read/heard recollections of lessons, and have watched a few videos of lecture demos of his, etc.

I'd probably go along with more of his stuff, THOUGH he doesn't discount dilligent practicing to reinforce accuracy/muscle memory...
...but the "knowing what it's supposed to sound like" thing has gotten me through quite a few (and some of them "hairy") pieces/performances/sight-reading performances - during times when I wasn't practicing at all, and well may not have played for weeks or months (ex: "summer repairs" or "horrible influenza bedridden bout", etc.)

AS A MATTER OF FACT...
Now that (after a bunch of months) having become more confident (having "switched" from C tuba to B-flat contrabass tuba - after 46 years of C tuba) reading BASS clef and mashing the correct buttons, I'm doubling back to TREBLE clef (which is THE clef of western music) and working to "catch myself back up" with treble clef (playing B-flat contrabass tuba) as well.
Until I get treble clef solid in my brain, I'm goofing up by doing things such as mashing C tuba buttons when I see some of the higher (or sharp-labeled, etc.) treble clef pitches, and making other such errors. Since I'm doing a combination of hearing the wrong pitches in my head AND mashing the wrong buttons, I'm making quite a few of those (per the video) types of errors...if not actually doing really "nice" jobs of playing the correct pitches with the wrong buttons (such as looking at an upper A, but playing it with 1-2, rather than 2 - since an A will come out of the instrument anyway).

I've already posted this elsewhere, but here's ANOTHER reason why we chip notes (particularly slurring to high ones - which are notoriously out-of-tune on quite a few models of tubas)...
A really fine trumpet player friend of mine is known to have told quite a few people, "The reason that you keep missing that pitch is because you're trying to play it in tune." (a real issue - and with trumpets, as well as tubas - which isn't addressed in your linked video)

BACK TO THE VIDEO:
If I actually had no idea how some upward slur was supposed to sound, and tightened my lips to raise to pitch to "up there somewhere", (sure!) I could imagine messing up (re: the video demos) like that all the time...ie. I believe that a whole bunch of brass players need to develop their ears - to catch up with where their embouchures and playing technique are already...ie. The face muscles, finger speed, air, etc...all great, YET the ability to pre-hear what is supposed to be played... maybe 75%...a 500 hp engine, yet with only a 1st and a 2nd gear in the transmission...

[BRS]

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[russiantuba]

I believe that a very large part of the attraction of C instruments (beyond college teachers telling their students to buy them) is that they don't quite require the precision - in this aspect of playing - as do comparable B-flat instruments.

I was just working with one of my college students on this exact thing. I am going to insert to Bloke's comment regarding piston vs rotor F tubas. Rotor F tubas require greater precision and don't hide anything in the low range. As I get better and improve on my piston F (that honestly plays like a rotor F), when I pick up a rotor F, I no longer have the issues I did when I owned one.

[Mary Ann]

@bloke spoke:
If my mind's ear hears an event, a phrase, a movement, or a complete work (and not just my part - but as much of everything else as possible) my muscles (SURE: backed up by practicing...but not weeks' worth) are going to do what needs to be done to produce what my mind's ear hears. (I've avoided the word "imagine/imagines", because most of what we're talking about is stuff that someone wrote down on a piece of paper.)
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That's because you already know how to play the instrument. What if your ear heard it perfectly fine but your body had zero idea how to produce that sound?

[bloke]

I should NOT respond this way, but ...

OK...what if I didn't have a mouthpiece or vocal chords, or was born completely deaf?

(If a rank beginner is trying to play a trombone - and can't find the pitches, I'd try to get them to sing the notes, and - since (given the level of experience that you're superimposing), I'd sing it first, have them sing it after me, and - if they are successful to that point - then see if (assuming they could find some slide positions) they could transfer that to buzzing their lips into a trombone.

If not, I'd hand them a saxophone.

[bloke]

you want to hear something that makes no sense, but works every time?

lets say you have to slur back and forth between a Bb in the staff to a C above it. open to 1st, right? maybe 23 to 1st?

nope, try open to 4th. It's counter intuitive and goes against everything in this thread, but for me and my students, it's always smoother..

[bloke]

you want to hear something that makes no sense, but works every time?

lets say you have to slur back and forth between a Bb in the staff to a C above it. open to 1st, right? maybe 23 to 1st?

nope, try open to 4th. It's counter intuitive and goes against everything in this thread, but for me and my students, it's always smoother..

yeah, but trill fingering (polka music, etc.)

[BRS]

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[LeMark]

I've just never understood WHY it's (usually) better. Seems counter intuitive

[bloke]

This (12 years ago...sheesh!) video goes towards the sidebar:

"playing by feel" vs. "hearing - in one's head - the sound(s) of what is to be executed 'next' ".

I was extremely busy - during this time in my life (and practicing/preparing for gigs VERY little)...

I REALLY believe having learned to play "chording" instruments (along with picking chords and solo lines off of pop music records - for garage bands - when quite young, etc.) helped me tremendously (in playing "crazy" stuff on the tuba) and saved me countless hours of (otherwise) practice time, as well as (such as I'm able to manage ) playing with "good" tuning.

You're seeing a much younger Dr. Micah Everett (notice the dark hair) from the first year he was hired to teach the low brass students at Ole Miss.
Micah had never played the Bozza "Sonatine", requested that we program it, the others of us had recently played it (a year or two previously) and - alternately - we suggested tackling this other (rarely programmed) Bozza Suite Française (which none of us had ever played). I'm sure we only managed to find time to put together no more than three rehearsals for this recital, and (again) I had very little time to work on my tuba part to this piece (gymnastic - and more so than the other parts - just as with the "Sonatine"). During the first read-through, Bob Gilbert (horn, super longtime buddy, and uncle of Michael Gilbert) interrupted and said something to the effect of "Do y'all hear what bloke is having to play, over here?"

The point being that there was absolutely no way that I could absolutely "learn" that part - certainly not via muscle memory (simply relying upon physical accuracy), nor from memorizing how it (in its entirety) "sounds"...but my (as a juvenile) delving into (so-called) "ear-training" (yet having no idea that I was teaching myself a skill-set) helped me through all of the compound intervals in this piece (and all sorts of other similarly gymnastic pieces, whereby I had sorely inadequate time to prepare). If anyone knows this work very well, they will hear a few misses, but - overall - I believe that (HAD I taught this piece to myself using "muscle memory" - rather than "hearing" all the compound intervals) I would have flubbed FAR MORE things (rather than a handful or so)...so (never having studied with Mr. Jacobs) I suppose I've always been on the "song" side of playing rather than the "physical execution" side ("physical execution" sort of being the primary topic of this thread) of playing, yes?

The (I'm thinking) rarely performed Bozza Suite begins around 28:00 and ends when it ends (followed by - standard fare - Ewald, as we always felt as though we should include something that the Ole Miss students themselves could tackle).
...There is some pretty good stuff on there. This was before (dear friend) Charlie Gates (so sadly) did himself in, and he was such an incredible trumpet player, and such a nice man. fwiw, every Easter (when one of the TubaForum peeps - here - reposts it - it is these two trumpeters who you hear on that Memphis - 2nd Presbyterian Church performance of Jesus Christ is Risen Today youtube video (2010?).

Here is the Bozza - cued up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

Here is the entire recital:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MOPu8n2hZY

(I'm thinking that - had I had the one that I have now, back then - along with the mouthpiece I just recently developed - I probably would have played the Ewazen on the cimbasso...YET...The tuba "color" does add something, doesn't it?)

[arpthark]

At first I thought that sounded good, but then I noticed you were playing a German rotary F tuba, so I've decided that it actually sounds stuffy.