fundamental problem(s) while playing?

[NiekH]

Hi,

Before i go any further, i'm not a prof. i'm just a amateur/ hobbiest that wants to get better (on euphonium).

So i've been playing for some years now. but i'm starting to get a little more serious, and for a little while now, i am starting to bump in more and more in some problems regarding flexibility, high range and having delays with input.

i think that it mostly has to do with my terrible breathing technique, and (probably) a bad embouchure. but have no idea how and where to start improving.

as for the breathing: it feels like i use my throat to much. and i struggle to figure out how to use my belly properly. i want to support the notes more but i'm not really able to achieve that yet.

as for the embouchure: i (was/ am) putting to much pressure on the mouthpiece. i am working on touching the mouthpiece with a lighter grip, and it seems to work for the duration of my practice/ playtime. so that's positive. but it still doesn't feel right.

i know i'm just a hobbiest/ amateur (and still only 19years old), but i would like to improve a lot.

i was hoping if anyone has any tips or advice?

(hope my english wasn't to bad btw).

[Grumpikins]

Based on your description, I would say your best option would be to find a local professional instructor and have an in person lesson. Those issues need to be addressed by someone who can see what your doing and show you how to correct them. Just one or two lessons should be enough to set you on th correct path.

Best wishes.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[bloke]

Two approaches that both work are
-to get some help from a really good player, and
- to listen to some really fine playing, and strive to emulate the sound.

Some pretty smart players believe that "how people sound" is exactly the sound that they are imagining in their heads.

It's all about sound.

It's sort of like the "golf swing" thing:
If someone is telling you all about the thirty different aspects of a golf swing, your brain - attempting to process all of that - is just going to cause you to totally be dysfunctional in the way you swing a golf club, but - if you watch someone swing a golf club and hit a ball really nicely over-and-over - you might have a pretty good chance of emulating that person...

... but watching someone swing a golf club really well while another person is talking about the things that the person is doing well.. that's kind of like combining the two things listed at the beginning of this post.

[Mary Ann]

People learn in different ways. For something that can be observed, like a golf swing, I learn best by watching and imitating that. For something that cannot be observed, like what is going on inside a cup, or where on the face the cup should actually be, I cannot learn from observing and need someone to tell me what those things are. Some people just fall into doing it the "right way for them," and others may do exactly the same thing but it is not the right thing for THEM. My oboe teacher was the best teacher I've ever had for anything, because he actually TOLD me what to do to play the instrument -- which I had not been able to discover from observing what he was doing, because they were subtle things. For that reason, I progressed more rapidly than I possibly could have by myself, and did not get stuck in bad habits from not being able to figure out how others got the results they did. Get the lessons.

[bloke]

yep...
ie. "Have someone talk about the golf swing while watching someone else do it" is sort of like "lessons", but is a combination of both observing and being taught.

I'm not sure that the "both at once" thing can happen with instrumental music lessons (??)

risk with lessons:

I have suffered mediocre teachers and enjoyed really insightful ones.
The mediocre ones (since I already played pretty well) weren't much help at all.
ie. "OK, here's what I want you to do for next week..."
next week: "OK. Good...now do this for next week..." (etc.)

They really didn't play any better than I did, and - thus - didn't offer me any eye-opening insights to continue to improve (beyond their own level).

Occasionally, the really insightful ones would go off on tangents, but - mostly - they would help me get past stumbling blocks.
Things such as, "That's nearly impossible to do with a tuba, but here's a way to SEEM AS THOUGH you're doing it." (etc.)
Occasionally, there are really great teachers who aren't particularly great doers, but that's sorta rare.

I suppose I'm suggesting to avoid the mistake of thinking, "I'm not all that good, so I probably should not seek out a really great teacher."

again: It's helpful to remember that it's all about SOUND, with the "how to" being in parentheses.

[Mary Ann]

And since we are arguing in the usual way, I will point out yet again that many people cannot get the sound they want without explicit instruction about what to do to get it. Like Roger Lewis's extremely helpful series of posts many years ago. If people don't figure out by themselves that squeezing the lips together and pressing the rim against the lips doesn't get them a high range, but changing the lip position does get them the high range, they need someone nice enough to tell them.

[acemorgan]

I suggest you start here:
http://www.rogerrocco.net/2021/

And read every post on his blog.

[peterbas]

.

[bloke]

Mary Ann and I are talking past each other.

Lessons are insightful, but ONLY IF the teacher plays well and teaches well (in my opinion).

The importance of listening to superb models (FAR more convenient if a teacher plays REALLY well) cannot be overemphasized (by me).

books/videos...?? uh...maybe.

The reason there IS music is because words are not a substitute for it, and words cannot come close to adequately describing it...well...unless the student is an engineer, approaches everything as if engineering is the way to approach everything, and views music as only its acoustical properties, I suppose...(??)

Finally, there's no reason to not learn about phrasing/emotional expression when learning to play an instrument AT THE SAME TIME that a person is learning to mechanically master an instrument (rather than some optional/later add-on).

I hear more than a few "superb" players who (maybe?) have only studied with tuba player > who have only studied with tuba players > who have only studied with tuba players...(at least, that's how they sound - to me).

...Its "OK" to play (actual) music on tubas, as well as on instruments whereby we normally expect to hear (actual) music.

[York-aholic]

When I saw this thread title and then clicked on it, I was expecting to see my picture there...

[C J]

I send NiekH a pm because I assume he is from the Netherlands and it is easier to help in het nederlands.

[Grumpikins]

In the future, after you decide what path to take. Please let us know what you did and how it worked out. It could help others with similar issues. Good luck.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[bloke]

When I saw this thread title and then clicked on it, I was expecting to see my picture there...

So you can't seem to be able to play a double low B flat either?

[iiipopes]

Don't underestimate yourself by using the word "just." You may be a hobbyist now, but remember, even the Beatles started out as a garage band, playing church picnics as a favor to them when they were your age, then a bar band, then the rest is history. I prefer my day job to a career in music, although playing music is a consuming beer-money-making hobby for me. I still approach my playing just like some of my "professional" friends, because those I play in ensemble with deserve my best. So all those things that professionals do to improve their playing to a performance level and keep it that way also apply to those of us who are weekend (or weeknight, depending on when scheduled rehearsals occur) warriors. Hang in there, and most of all, enjoy the ride! You will be able to enjoy it for the rest of your life.

[NiekH]

thx for the replies. there certainly is some stuff i can work with.

i do take lessons every week, but it's on amateur level the help with embouchure and breathing is very minimal.

I am taking a embouchure workshop this weekend tho. they will look with equipment and a camera, and afterwards give me soms tips and advice. so i'm hoping that will also help me going in to the future.

[NiekH]

I send NiekH a pm because I assume he is from the Netherlands and it is easier to help in het nederlands.

I indeed am Dutch. i can't reply to your pm for some reason but i would love some tips.

[bloke]

To be really frank as I tend to be about most all tuba music, the main purpose of tuba quartets is educational. They're certainly not commercially viable. I think one of the main purposes is supposed to be for tuning, and - with harmonies that low (and I'm hesitant to legitimately call them harmonies, as they sort of fly in the face of physics) - I'm not sure how valuable they are, as far as tuning is concerned. Tuba players almost never face chords voiced that low in real music.
Tuba Christmas? Why not? It's fun.

Super intelligently/cleverly written tuba quartets?
Yeah, some of those sound pretty nice.
Again, anytime the lower voices start punching anything together, the sense of pitch in those voices disappears. I don't mean that they are out of tune, that but they mostly sound like percussion/low noise with the hard attacks sonority change.

[Richard III]

The best teachers I ever had played something and then told me to immitate the sound. Get that sound in my head. For me that really worked.

Next topic is posture. I see even professional players with poor posture and believe me, you can hear it. There is a lack of resonance, plus the breathing is inhibited. In my community band, it is even worse. There are players basically playing bent over to reach the horn laying in their lap. Never will that work. Think about it. Think about singing, upright posture, full breath, easy exhalation and full sound.

[bloke]

The best teachers I ever had played something and then told me to immitate the sound. Get that sound in my head. For me that really worked.

Next topic is posture. I see even professional players with poor posture and believe me, you can hear it. There is a lack of resonance, plus the breathing is inhibited. In my community band, it is even worse. There are players basically playing bent over to reach the horn laying in their lap. Never will that work. Think about it. Think about singing, upright posture, full breath, easy exhalation and full sound.

A friend of mine (not a tuba, but a low brass instrument) parks their legs apart and bents forward...
...very little sound...
They also use mouthpieces that - were I to play that instrument - I would never use (huge mouthpieces with huge throats...dull).

There's a certain type of player that pays too much attention to how they sound to themselves, while paying little attention to how they sound in the room. Most all of that type tend to underplay...ie. play confidentially. Usually (to me) even up close it's not what I would prefer to hear...
...NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH jazz artists of the past who mastered playing into close microphones...prime example: Carl Fontana (etc.)

[C J]

Because NiekH is not able to PM I made the post in Dutch, English (google translate) is below.

Je ademsteun kun je ontwikkelen door onder andere deze oefening.
Je gaat op een stoel zitten en laat je armen langs je lichaam de onderkant van de zitting vastpakken.
Dan adem je uit. Als je uitgeademd hebt dan span je je armen aan zodat je jezelf in de zitting trekt.
Als je de armen aangespannen hebt adem je in.
Je merkt (als je het goed doet) dat je buik uitzet. Houd dit 3 seconden aan. Adem dan weer (gecontroleerd) uit. Als je dit een paar keer gedaan hebt kun je het ook eens doen zonder de zitting vast te pakken, maar juist je euphonium.


Als jij het bent op de foto van je avatar, dan zou ik iets rechterop gaan spelen (je kijkt nu naar beneden waardoor je je strottehoofd afknijpt)

Met vriendelijke groet,
CJ
Zeijen


You can develop your breath support through this exercise, among other things.
You sit on a chair and let your arms grab the bottom of the seat at your sides. Then you exhale. When you have exhaled, tighten your arms so that you pull yourself into the seat. When you have your arms tightened, you breathe in. You notice (if you do it right) that your belly expands. Hold for 3 seconds. Then exhale again (controlled). Once you have done this a few times, you can also do it without grabbing the seat, but rather your euphonium.

If it's you in the picture of your avatar, I'd play a little straighter (you're now looking down and pinching your larynx) Sincerely,
CJ
Zeijen