TWO 😮 interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagram
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TWO 😮 interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagram
Honestly...(OK - per my experiences - a bit shockingly)
The tuning isn't bad.
(I've played some 5-figure-priced tubas that offer far more dubious intonation.)
As can be seen, these two are "first cousins" of each other.
The 4-valve (apparently...and I don't remember individual repairs), I'm told that I did a tremendous amount of work on it in the past to get it where it is...but it needed some guides, a casing top male thread ring soldered back on, a brace or two re-soldered, some button/stem issues (etc.)
The 3-valve is a newly-owned one by this customer.
What they had (in regards to the 3-valve) was a complete 3-valve TOP-ACTION tuba with very leaky valves (dismally unsatisfactory playing experience) which featured the good-condition bell and some useful oem buttons/caps/etc.
RECENTLY (re: the three-valve SIDE-action) they were given the side-action body (which has GOOD valves), but it was totally MISSING its recording bell, and had some wrong caps/buttons...
...so (yes, obviously...) the big upright bell (today) was transplanted from the top-action/leaky-valves body to the no-bell/side-action/recording body/good-valves body - as well as upgrading the side-action with oem top caps and buttons (donated from the leaky-valves top-action).
man-oh-man...Did I do a BUNCH of un-soldering/soldering, and dent removal, today.
(and the donor bell - though surely made from the same mandred) was loosey-goosey in the 3-valve front-action body' bottom bow, so I had to do a bunch of "song-and-dance" until it fit properly (to avoid adding to the instrument's weight via a spool of solder...no, not really, but sorta )
...and the customer now has two GOOD Conn E-flat tubas, rather than ONE good one, a no-good one, and part of another one.
Hey...The "new" 3-valve (with about a 1/2 inch pull and a full-size mouthpiece stuck into it (there was a Helleberg out in the shop), does A=440 with ease.
Of course, we fed/coffeed the customer and they are on their way home (probably home by midnight or 1 A.M.)
Candidly, I thought I was doing a bunch of work to end up with a big E-flat tuba that "plays strong", yet with goofball tuning characteristics, but no: It's quite a viable/serviceable instrument...so (even though this was a "surprise" repair gig, and I wondered if it might only be "busy work") I actually accomplished something good, today (and was paid).
I also had another customer pick up an amazing c. 1960's (gleaming original lacquer) King 5B "Silver Sonic" - whereby they had taken a distressed playing slide off to "another place" and got it back worse than it was when dropped off. (yes...NONE of us really mind repairing damage, but ALL of us hate having to repair damage inflicted via the advantage/benefit of TOOLS. ).
I found some parts (not King, as who knows how long or if) which were extremely close to the original parts (parts that I was forced to replace, and which I was forced to label as scrap), and (yup) it's a GOOD slide. 2/3rds of a century ago, trombone playing slides featured closer tolerances. (I'm pretty sure that the "stocking" o.d. has remained - this particular model - at .580", but I'm also pretty sure the the inner i.d. of the outside playing slide tubes (across the industry) has been opened up by a couple of thousands of an inch. This (I believe) is why a whole bunch of current era slides have to be held UPWARD (by the player) to avoid "7th position drag", why (same issue) the stocking transitions on all makes is now "soft" and why many makes "round down" (shrink inward) the bottom ends of their inside slide tubes...(see picture below, regarding what happens in 7th position with a loose-fitting playing slide)...
Anyway...as the OUTSIDE slide tubes (on this older instrument) feature closer tolerances, this slide (once I repaired everything) DOES feel "different" (more "contact" and awareness of surfaces articulation) yet DOES feel even (not irregular/uneven drag) and the BENEFICIAL tradeoff is that - in 7th position - the slide doesn't dip (as illustrated above) and therefore it doesn't drag in 7th position.
fwiw...The customer is extremely happy, as (after all these years, and two or three mediocre (and recently disastrous) attempts at repair, he claims that it finally behaves as it did when he brought it home from the store with his Dad (original cost c. 1960 - a fortune: $500), lubricated it, and played it as a high school student.
The tuning isn't bad.
(I've played some 5-figure-priced tubas that offer far more dubious intonation.)
As can be seen, these two are "first cousins" of each other.
The 4-valve (apparently...and I don't remember individual repairs), I'm told that I did a tremendous amount of work on it in the past to get it where it is...but it needed some guides, a casing top male thread ring soldered back on, a brace or two re-soldered, some button/stem issues (etc.)
The 3-valve is a newly-owned one by this customer.
What they had (in regards to the 3-valve) was a complete 3-valve TOP-ACTION tuba with very leaky valves (dismally unsatisfactory playing experience) which featured the good-condition bell and some useful oem buttons/caps/etc.
RECENTLY (re: the three-valve SIDE-action) they were given the side-action body (which has GOOD valves), but it was totally MISSING its recording bell, and had some wrong caps/buttons...
...so (yes, obviously...) the big upright bell (today) was transplanted from the top-action/leaky-valves body to the no-bell/side-action/recording body/good-valves body - as well as upgrading the side-action with oem top caps and buttons (donated from the leaky-valves top-action).
man-oh-man...Did I do a BUNCH of un-soldering/soldering, and dent removal, today.
(and the donor bell - though surely made from the same mandred) was loosey-goosey in the 3-valve front-action body' bottom bow, so I had to do a bunch of "song-and-dance" until it fit properly (to avoid adding to the instrument's weight via a spool of solder...no, not really, but sorta )
...and the customer now has two GOOD Conn E-flat tubas, rather than ONE good one, a no-good one, and part of another one.
Hey...The "new" 3-valve (with about a 1/2 inch pull and a full-size mouthpiece stuck into it (there was a Helleberg out in the shop), does A=440 with ease.
Of course, we fed/coffeed the customer and they are on their way home (probably home by midnight or 1 A.M.)
Candidly, I thought I was doing a bunch of work to end up with a big E-flat tuba that "plays strong", yet with goofball tuning characteristics, but no: It's quite a viable/serviceable instrument...so (even though this was a "surprise" repair gig, and I wondered if it might only be "busy work") I actually accomplished something good, today (and was paid).
I also had another customer pick up an amazing c. 1960's (gleaming original lacquer) King 5B "Silver Sonic" - whereby they had taken a distressed playing slide off to "another place" and got it back worse than it was when dropped off. (yes...NONE of us really mind repairing damage, but ALL of us hate having to repair damage inflicted via the advantage/benefit of TOOLS. ).
I found some parts (not King, as who knows how long or if) which were extremely close to the original parts (parts that I was forced to replace, and which I was forced to label as scrap), and (yup) it's a GOOD slide. 2/3rds of a century ago, trombone playing slides featured closer tolerances. (I'm pretty sure that the "stocking" o.d. has remained - this particular model - at .580", but I'm also pretty sure the the inner i.d. of the outside playing slide tubes (across the industry) has been opened up by a couple of thousands of an inch. This (I believe) is why a whole bunch of current era slides have to be held UPWARD (by the player) to avoid "7th position drag", why (same issue) the stocking transitions on all makes is now "soft" and why many makes "round down" (shrink inward) the bottom ends of their inside slide tubes...(see picture below, regarding what happens in 7th position with a loose-fitting playing slide)...
Anyway...as the OUTSIDE slide tubes (on this older instrument) feature closer tolerances, this slide (once I repaired everything) DOES feel "different" (more "contact" and awareness of surfaces articulation) yet DOES feel even (not irregular/uneven drag) and the BENEFICIAL tradeoff is that - in 7th position - the slide doesn't dip (as illustrated above) and therefore it doesn't drag in 7th position.
fwiw...The customer is extremely happy, as (after all these years, and two or three mediocre (and recently disastrous) attempts at repair, he claims that it finally behaves as it did when he brought it home from the store with his Dad (original cost c. 1960 - a fortune: $500), lubricated it, and played it as a high school student.
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Re: TWO interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagra
so - regarding INSTALLING THE BELL on the 3-valve...
Which joints - would you suppose that I soldered FIRST ?
Which joints - would you suppose that I soldered FIRST ?
Last edited by bloke on Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- bloke
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Re: TWO interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagra
something else:
tuning slide in the mouthpipe vs. tuning slide past the valves...
The tuning characteristics are basically identical.
I believe Hirsbrunner demonstrated "likely, no significant change" when the moved from model 390 (HB-2P) to model 392 (HB-21) production, yes?
tuning slide in the mouthpipe vs. tuning slide past the valves...
The tuning characteristics are basically identical.
I believe Hirsbrunner demonstrated "likely, no significant change" when the moved from model 390 (HB-2P) to model 392 (HB-21) production, yes?
Last edited by bloke on Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TWO 😮 interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagra
Not sure if these are the same model or not, but when I went to Norm's house in July and bought the york, I also looked at a playable version of a conn. My issue was that I tend to lean a horn to get the mouthpiece higher and it was so tall and so heavy it just wasn't comfortable to hold
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Re: TWO interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagra
20 inch bell, NOT a small diameter small-end of the bell, NOT a short tuba, very much "as if a large B-flat tuba" in size...
...and yes, substantial.
Understand that I'm just reviewing what I encountered, and not trying to recruit players for them...
...but (ok...) what if someone made a 3-plus-3 (three on top, and three on the side) version of it, and cut it to C...??
...and yes, substantial.
Understand that I'm just reviewing what I encountered, and not trying to recruit players for them...
...but (ok...) what if someone made a 3-plus-3 (three on top, and three on the side) version of it, and cut it to C...??
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Re: TWO 😮 interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagra
The rescued Eb 3v looks great. Good two substance wall hangers could be made into one good horn.
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- bloke (Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:10 am)
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Re: TWO interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagra
Yeah I was surprised at how well everything went together, and it's not really that I did anything miraculous. They parts were all close enough to fitting so that I didn't really have to struggle, but it just took such a long time, and I really couldn't set it aside and look at it again tomorrow, because the guy was there.
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Re: TWO 😮 interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagram
Regarding the King Silver Sonic 5B playing slide repair (was really messed up...)
Here's subsequent email #2 (received today).
The first one was a couple of weeks later, and this one - now - is months later.
' nice to know that some people appreciate their stuff working right...
Here's subsequent email #2 (received today).
The first one was a couple of weeks later, and this one - now - is months later.
' nice to know that some people appreciate their stuff working right...
Joe, I sure am enjoying a smooth slide. I bought a new tube of Yamaha slide cream and it is working great. Thank you again. Have a blessed day.
Re: TWO 😮 interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagram
Two cousins? Of course they are, you’re in Tennessee.
Yamaha 641
Hirsbrunner Euph
I hate broccoli.
Hirsbrunner Euph
I hate broccoli.
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Re: TWO 😮 interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagram
Principal tuba, Bel Air Community Band
Old (early 1900s?) Alexander BBb proto-163
1976 Sonora (B&S 101) 4-rotor BBb
1964 Conn 20J/21J BBb (one body, both bells)
1970s Marzan Slant-rotor BBb
~1904 York 3P BBb Helicon
Old Alex Comp.F, in shop
Old (early 1900s?) Alexander BBb proto-163
1976 Sonora (B&S 101) 4-rotor BBb
1964 Conn 20J/21J BBb (one body, both bells)
1970s Marzan Slant-rotor BBb
~1904 York 3P BBb Helicon
Old Alex Comp.F, in shop
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Re: TWO 😮 interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagram
retracted
Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
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Re: TWO 😮 interesting 95 - 100 year old large/tall Conn E-flat tubas...and trombone slide repair rhetoric/diagram
We - who live in the south - greatly benefit from people - who live in not-southern Stalinist sh!tholes - believing that the south is the worst possible place to live, and we also hope that most of those same sorts of people will continue to judge us all as remarkably stupid.
Sadly, there are a few pockets of sh!tholism in the south. We call them "cities". The very best thing about southern cities is that they feature these really amazing things called "outer loop freeways". There's one in my state numbered 269, and another one numbered 840. Unlike these dubious concoctions - which are represented to us by our rulers as "vaccines", these outer loop freeways really do function as vaccines - from lead poisoning.
=============
I have a relative who deals with Asperger syndrome. They try to make jokes, but they go way around the corner and there are too many unexplained steps in theit jokes for them to seem humorous to others. If you're trying to become a professional or just want to be funny, maybe (??) try avoiding too many steps to go through for others to find humor in your comments. I do want you to be successful, and am just trying to offer some pointers.
Sadly, there are a few pockets of sh!tholism in the south. We call them "cities". The very best thing about southern cities is that they feature these really amazing things called "outer loop freeways". There's one in my state numbered 269, and another one numbered 840. Unlike these dubious concoctions - which are represented to us by our rulers as "vaccines", these outer loop freeways really do function as vaccines - from lead poisoning.
=============
I have a relative who deals with Asperger syndrome. They try to make jokes, but they go way around the corner and there are too many unexplained steps in theit jokes for them to seem humorous to others. If you're trying to become a professional or just want to be funny, maybe (??) try avoiding too many steps to go through for others to find humor in your comments. I do want you to be successful, and am just trying to offer some pointers.