Holst - Suite 2 (beginning of March)

[bloke]

"that" figure...

I was just reminded of this, because it came up in YouTube's pre-selected rotation (when I failed to click away a previous video).

I picked up a tuba (actually, the recently-discussed pygmy Holton B-flat) and played the figure. I played it "correctly", but did NOT like hearing it. (Actually, I've NEVER liked hearing it.)

...so I started "messing with" it, until I DID like it, and this is where I arrived...



' your thoughts?

[Jim Williams]

Assuming you're not trolling the group, I say NO to both of the changes.

*The long C is out of character for a march and inconsistent with what comes before it and after it.

*You are playing it alone in a barn/workshop, not in a reverberant concert hall, in the back row, as a member of an ensemble--that will distort perception.

*It's an ascending passage that will be answered by the higher voices in the next measure, with the main tune appearing in bar 3. Assuming that the upper voices in measure 2 follow suit with a decrescendo, the tune then comes as a shock at forte. That's most likely not the intent.

*Additionally, the higher voices will be larger in number, closer to the audience, and more acoustically pungent, so a decrescendo in measure 1 would make measure 2 sound very loud. If anything, I'd make a slight crescendo in measure 1 to meet the upper voices in measure 2.

*"It feels good (in the workshop)" is not a criterion I would have employed to make musical judgments. If you have MUSICAL reasoning for your choices, I'd welcome reading them.

*If, as we say in court, Stare Decisis, then the interpretation in your post is not desirable. I've played this piece dozens of times with conductors ranging from Frederick Fennell to Frederick Finkelstein and have never been told to play the passage as indicated in the OP.

*If anything, the consensus seems to be that a slight crescendo is in order to follow the line up and meet the main tune when it appears. What I have frequently heard, however, is not to spank the notes too hard, as heaviness is also out of character.

So...assuming you're not trolling, there are my reasons for not doing as I see in the OP.

[bloke]

not trolling...
It’s just that ending with “tut” (even though it’s obviously a phrase fragment) isn’t pleasing to me, and yes: (if in charge of the music) I would ask the higher instruments to play it the same way.
If if played in a live hall, it would sound the same either way, and – if played in a “dead“ room - it would help make it sound ~as if~ it were played in a live hall.
The subtle diminuendo just prevents a natural (acoustic) crescendo - as (being a fragment of what is to become) even a hint of a crescendo (yes?) should be avoided, as - when the complete phrase is finally offered/executed - the subsequent eighth notes “fly off” the F at the beginning - with the F receiving the stress.
…and I’m not arguing with your disagreement – which I requested, but am only explaining why I prefer this execution.

[Matt Walters]

I like messing with the conductor's head by playing that lick in warmup before the rehearsal begins. I wait until there is a break in the noise then play it in a jazz swing style loud enough he/she can't miss it. The look I see in my peripheral vision is priceless and then later the, "I want to go over some phrasing in the Holst Suite."

[bloke]

I like messing with the conductor's head by playing that lick in warmup before the rehearsal begins. I wait until there is a break in the noise then play it in a jazz swing style loud enough he/she can't miss it. The look I see in my peripheral vision is priceless and then later the, "I want to go over some phrasing in the Holst Suite."

[matt g]

A couple things:

The diminuendo is probably a decent idea since often times that lick is going into a register where the horn projects better.

A lot of people play the dotted quarter the same length as the dotted eighths. It’s supposed to be a little longer. Maybe your notation is a bit more of a mental cue?

[bloke]

A couple things:

The diminuendo is probably a decent idea since often times that lick is going into a register where the horn projects better.

A lot of people play the dotted quarter the same length as the dotted eighths. It’s supposed to be a little longer. Maybe your notation is a bit more of a mental cue?

yeah...
I suppose this editing is a reaction to what usually happens (versus what is actually desired), so you’re probably right...
...and it is observant of you to point out that the C is a staccato quarter note, and not a staccato eighth note - followed by an eighth rest.

The vast majority of our wind instrument expression and articulation markings are derived from bowed string instruments’ markings, and - often - things are lost in the translation.

https://www.thestrad.com/improve-your-p ... 48.article

...this Italian word simply means detached.

In very old wind-playing jazz verbiage, “playing a pitch with a very hard attack, and stopping it as soon as possible“ was referred to as “slap-tongue”, and was commonly employed by bass saxophonists and bass clarinetists (when playing popular dance music) roughly 90 years ago.

[Yorkboy]

20201025_114523_copy_349x136.jpg (19.98 KiB) Viewed 1424 times

(Articulations at your discretion)

[jtm]

20201025_114523_copy_349x136.jpg

(Articulations at your discretion)

I'm gonna be hearing that all day.

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[bloke]

my personal taste (regarding this very short passage) aside...
Only a small portion of what really fine musicians (those - in the great minority of all musicians - who read things on pieces of paper as they play) do is actually written down on paper, and - whether 2 or 72 of them playing together - they constantly/acutely listen to what each other are doing - enhancing/interpreting what is written down, in order to avoid sounding like a band of hurdy-gurdies. If what they are doing isn't matching (and needs to match) one or more of the musicians (or a conductor/director) will point out and address the problem.
=============================
I like the Debussy/Holst combo.
=============================

[bloke]

oh...
...and I just changed my mind:

I've unintentionally stumbled into placing a MAGNIFICENT troll, here.

[Yorkboy]

I like the Debussy/Holst combo.

Very wholesome indeed

[Casca Grossa]

You should probably play it on cimbasso.

[tobysima`]

You should probably play it on cimbasso.

Cimbasso with a 30" bell because why not?

[tubanh84]

This little phrase is one of my pet peeves.

The issue with it, I have always found, is that people don't get their tone centered until the last half of the C at the end of it. So most of the time it is a garbled mess. As a result, under "normal" circumstances, you have a series of badly articulated notes, half of which don't have any real pitch to latch onto, and it's over before the audience can figure out what was supposed to have happened.

To Joe's original point, pre-troll, if you do it his way, you can over-emphasize the F with a functional accent and then overemphasize the C to show the outline of the phrase, and you can probably get closer to producing the written page.

TO ME, what it really takes is a group of people who can produce a nice, easy, centered tone to play it with a very VERY slight accent on the F, drop a quarter of a dynamic to the G, and then a slight crescendo up to the C, which ends cleanly before the next group takes up the phrase.

But that's something very few groups can pull off well, and this piece is routinely played in high schools....

However, historically I have put a lot of focus on this phrase with my euphonium students who are prepping for college auditions in case it's asked. Because it can be a real mess and derail an otherwise good audition.

[humBell]

It's also played by the euphs, right?

I just try to not slow them down, and hope they carry the musicality of it better than me.

Some day though, i hope to be a real tuba player.

[bloke]

This little phrase is one of my pet peeves.

The issue with it, I have always found, is that people don't get their tone centered until the last half of the C at the end of it. So most of the time it is a garbled mess. As a result, under "normal" circumstances, you have a series of badly articulated notes, half of which don't have any real pitch to latch onto, and it's over before the audience can figure out what was supposed to have happened.

To Joe's original point, pre-troll, if you do it his way, you can over-emphasize the F with a functional accent and then overemphasize the C to show the outline of the phrase, and you can probably get closer to producing the written page.

TO ME, what it really takes is a group of people who can produce a nice, easy, centered tone to play it with a very VERY slight accent on the F, drop a quarter of a dynamic to the G, and then a slight crescendo up to the C, which ends cleanly before the next group takes up the phrase.

But that's something very few groups can pull off well, and this piece is routinely played in high schools....

However, historically I have put a lot of focus on this phrase with my euphonium students who are prepping for college auditions in case it's asked. Because it can be a real mess and derail an otherwise good audition.

<UNtroll>

Another issue is that the C (with many B-flat instruments) is flat, thus degrading (whether-or-not players make an effort to push the C up in pitch) the clarity/resonance of that final pitch in the run even more.
Playing it as a staccato (remembering: detached, from the actual definition of "staccato", rather than "tut-sound") quarter note (rather than incorrectly, as a detached eighth note) gives many players a "fighting chance" to "do something better" with that C. Realize that the only thing from which the C needs to be "detached" is the run's penultimate B-flat, as the C is only followed by a very long rest.

With most musical phrasing, "up-is-up, and down is down" (re: Tabuteau)...but there are endless exceptions - with this (to my ears) being one phrase that should be on the endless list of exceptions. Singing the first complete phrase (and/or listening to some of the finest recordings) demonstrates this.

Here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yAmR-U3Hug...
...the tubas begin with a that's-pretty-good-for-tubas "tutty-tutty-TUT! (mixed in with a good measure of "blatty-blatty-BLAT!"), following by the woodwinds - executing per my editing in the original post. To some (many?) tuba players' ears (as there is a strong flavor of "manly!" and "workin' hard!" in the sound), this may sound "great", but (OK...) to a woodwind player's ears (such as one who might be sitting behind a screen in an audition committee), possibly/probably "not so much".


I'd wager that - were I coaching/conducting/directing a band (for a "contest" - as competing is a peculiar phenomenon in which wind bands involve themselves), and instructed my charges to execute this phrase in this way, the judge(s) would not hear (seated "back up there") it as "wrong", but (assuming good execution) would only hear it as "good".

</UNtroll>

[RenoDoc]

I never could play those notes cleanly.

Then again, I also always dropped the Eb at the end of the phrase in Holst's first suite in the opening 8 bars

[bloke]

I never could play those notes cleanly.

Then again, I also always dropped the Eb at the end of the phrase in Holst's first suite in the opening 8 bars

It’s a challenging passage. As stated, I wasn’t impressed with the way that those conservatory students executed it on that recording.
Somehow, I tend to credit band directors’ facial expressions - just before beginning the piece - with some of the explanation as to why tuba players tend to play that figure with a “fist“, rather than just tossing it off - as do the woodwind players, who follow.