That B&M...

[Sousaswag]

...That's been for sale a while. I bought it. Before you ask why, I have my reasons.

Anyway, Daniel was a great person to deal with. Everything he wrote about the horn is true. He is communicative, and he had the tuba CLEANED before he sold it! A mark of a great seller, and all around great person. Wouldn't hesitate to do business with him again.

What this tuba is:
CC
4V
Old(ish) - Serial dates it to 1984
4.5/4ish? Certainly larger than the Eastman 632 or 832/King 2341

Those of you that have played Marzan or B&M tubas know what they are. Truthfully, it plays really well. No, it is not perfect. Yes, I have to pull on that main slide. But, it's moving like a trombone slide. I'm kind of digging that design. What a great idea! The CC's need it more than the BBb's. I've played on 3 or 4 Marzans with both piston/rotary valves, and the BBb's are certainly more in-tune than the CC's.

However, it's fine. It's easier to play than my Holton 6/4. More agile, quicker response. Duh. It's 2 feet shorter and way smaller. It also seems to slot easier than the big guy. But it doesn't give that Earth shaking presence that only the big tubas get.

What I like about this tuba, playing it today, about 2 or 3 hours, are these things:

Design. I love that main tuning slide on top. Again, the CC's need it, but they aren't as bad as you may think. Open pitches are good.

Ergonomics: Every 4/4 I've played has been too short to comfortably play. These Marzans/B&Ms being bigger, mean the mouthpipes are mounted higher than comparable models. See my comparison below.

Sound: These make a really nice sound. There's a nice 'zip' to it that I really like. Not "bland" at all. Take that as you will.

Quality: These are made well. This one could use a few things, but really nothing major. Nothing I'll do anytime soon, either.

What this tuba needs:

A new bag. The bag it came with is, well, it's seen better days. No big deal. I don't think this will be leaving the house much, but maybe I'll treat it to a nice Miraphone bag or a used Cronkhite someday. Someone else will probably be playing this more than I will.

Slide stop on the main slide: It used to have one. It would be nice to put one back on it. Right now I tied some paracord string to it and made a makeshift stop. It works.

Very minor solder work: Solder didn't make it to the ends of the first slide inner brace. I don't really care right now. Just noticed it.

Yamaha springs: Already ordered. I put them in all my tubas. Right now the valves are heavy feeling.

One other thing: The mouthpipe. This is the large pipe, and it is removable. Cool, nice for cleaning, the tuba plays well with this pipe. I went through my entire mouthpiece "library" of Euro, American, and P shanks, various cups, rims, models, and settled on my Parker Titan with a modified Helleberg rim. It's a smaller mouthpiece that I use on my Willson F as well. Of the pieces I have, I like it the best.

That's all. I like the horn. Simple, no nonsense C tuba. W-A-Y more desirable to me than the cheap Chinese 186 clones, and put together better at that.

[

[
Mouthpipe height is just about the same. Love it.

[bloke]

Stop referring to 1984 as "old".

Find a euphemism, such as - maybe - "orwellian" or something...


...I remember those being on the bottom row of a black-and-white Getzen 1-pg. paper flier - whereby most of the tubas listed/shown were Meinl-Weston.

I believe I saw the first one (Boehm & Meinl) that I ever saw in Tullahoma, Tennessee at a high school jazz festival (yeah...a "real" jazz band trip...motel and everything...Imagine that! )

The one that I saw was a slant-rotor one...freaked me out...also (being a bass player) I was wondering why I was seeing that at a big-band festival...but - hearing them later - they seemed to concentrate on 40's stuff...Though my band director seemed to me to be an ol' coot (though a fine jazz trombonist) he bought us some nice "progressive" and "jazz-rock" charts.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU TRIGGERED MEMORIES...

...including (and this was actually 1974...not 84)...floating some pool furniture out onto the motel pool icebergs.
(early March or maybe even April...??...ie. per-cateclismic "climate change"...back when more winters were wonderfully hard/bitter, and we had to burn way more fuel to keep warm, etc.)


This was the route, because the lower outer loop (I-840) avoiding Nashville did not exist at that time, so we had go through downtown Nashville to connect up with I-24 - because the inner loop bypass, I-440, was not even constructed back in 1974.

tull.png (106.9 KiB) Viewed 1729 times

OK...I mentioned "the first time I saw a B&M tuba" so my reply is BARELY ON TOPIC !!!

opinion of B&M tubas: same as yours (yes?)...pitchy, big sound, fun to play

[Sousaswag]

Yes... Pitchy, but totally playable.

I like a lot about it. Happy camper.

I also see why so many cannibalize the piston sets and put them on other things. They're pretty well-made.

[bloke]

congrats !

[Sousaswag]

Okay, this little tuba is actually really, really fun to play. So much, in fact, that I'll likely be taking it to my summer band rehearsals. What I like about it is that it's so easy to steer. Those small-block pistons certainly help with that feel, but being a physically smaller instrument than anything else I have (besides my F) makes getting around the tuba really easy.

There is absolutely zero stuffiness around Bb-G like on many, many Hirsbrunners. It is really good below the staff.

It needs some things.

First, there's a buzz. After doing some "buzz detecting" I discovered the first slide brace is popped on both ends front and back. So, that needs to get fixed.

I also think it needs at least one brace from the outer first slide tube to either the bell or one of the inner bows. Having nothing there and watching that tube able to flex scares me. These never came with a brace there, and I think they could use one.

It needs a case. I bought one for a King 2341 that was about 2 inches too short. These tubas (and big Willson F's) are a really weird size in that they're big-ish, but not huge. That bell size really makes a good-fitting case difficult because most tubas 37" tall either have a 19" or smaller bell. Not much fits these things from Miraphone/Gard/ProTec, so you're really stuck getting a custom bag.

I'm going to try Messina, as he's about $200 cheaper than Cronkhite and likely with WAY less of a wait time. Yesterday, I traced my horn and took as precise measurements of it as I could, and sent that to Messina. I have zero experience with his bags, but they look to be made well. We'll give it a shot. I'll write up something of my impressions as I see fit.

I'm surprised these aren't more popular, but it means someone will get a really good German-made tuba without spending a whole bunch of money. In particular, the BBb's. You need to have a good ear for the CC's, but man, so easy to play.

[daktx2]

It really does have a crazy good low register. It's a really nice tuba for the lower octave/bass foundation kind of a role. Super intuitive and even response down in the basement, no weird notes at all.

I've always thought it was strange that the Besson 995/Nirschl 4/4's, which have some common design lineage to these B&Ms, have (at least for me) less intuitive low register response characteristics than the B&Ms.

[bloke]

[the elephant]

That is the same valve/slide set used on my Holton 345. (Well, slides 1-3.) It is excellent in all ways. Mine is from 1990.



Likewise, my Kurath has a 1989 Nirschl-made piston block with a different bore profile (and set up to be vertical rather than set at 45º) that shares slides 1-3, but uses 18mm for 1-3 and 19mm for 4th. (1st does not drop down as it would then be too short up top so that the knuckle turns upwards as on most vertical piston sets.)



Chuck Jackson had one of these B&M CCs at the SOM when we were students there in 1985. I tried it, liked it a whole lot, and very nearly bought one.

Congratulations!

[dp]

It needs a case.

Decades ago, the side loader bag Glenn sold me for my 345 worked fine for my Rusk-cut B&M.
Today that bag doubles between the Holton & a Marzan CC I got after mistakenly selling the Bohm.

[Sousaswag]

That is the same valve/slide set used on my Holton 345. (Well, slides 1-3.) It is excellent in all ways. Mine is from 1990.



Likewise, my Kurath has a 1989 Nirschl-made piston block with a different bore profile (and set up to be vertical rather than set at 45º) that shares slides 1-3, but uses 18mm for 1-3 and 19mm for 4th. (1st does not drop down as it would then be too short up top so that the knuckle turns upwards as on most vertical piston sets.)

Chuck Jackson had one of these B&M CCs at the SOM when we were students there in 1985. I tried it, liked it a whole lot, and very nearly bought one.

Congratulations!

This piston set is one of the nicest I’ve had the pleasure of using. Such light action once I put Yamaha springs in it, and one can tell these are well-made. I can see why they’re sought after for franken-projects.

[Yorkboy]

I’ll second the elephant and Sousaswag - they are very well made valve sets. I’ve used two on two projects of mine in the past. Unfortunately I don’t think they are in production anymore, or I would be seeking out more of them.

B&M made some mighty fine tubas back in those days.

[Sousaswag]

I figured I’d come back and update this thread from time to time, as it seems these may be helpful to anybody looking at a particular instrument in the future. I added to my thoughts from my first post about this tuba. I also got it into a new case since then. Thanks, Jason!

1) Who is this tuba for?

Honestly, if you’re someone who is trying to get into the audition circuit, or is a college music jock, this tuba isn’t for you. You already know that.

If you are somebody who is looking for a well-built, good sounding instrument in CC who doesn’t want to spend a bunch of money, this would be a great fit.

Music education students, music teachers, hobbyists, professionals, anybody could be happy with this instrument depending on their specific needs.

I think this is a really good fit for those music students who aren’t willing or able to spend $XX,XXX on a big tuba, who would rather pay off some student loans and be smart with their money. It’s also a great fit for that high school student looking for a forever instrument, who may not be doing music as a career, but wants their own tuba nonetheless.

It’s one of those “hidden gem” tubas, whether in BBb or in CC, that you could play for your entire career, depending on what it is. It fits well in community bands, small ensembles, large ensembles, quintets, anything.

2) Build quality and design choices

Build quality, as I said above, is really quite good. It feels like a quality instrument. It won’t dent just by looking at it wrong. Most tubas with a 20” bell feature a very thin bell flare that I’m able to bend quite far with my hands. This one is stout. It bends, but not much.

The piston set, again, is very nice. Light action, great cap threading, and a comfortable angle. The pistons on this particular tuba don’t leak. If they do, I absolutely think they are worth rebuilding. If nothing else, you will have an excellent set for one of your franken-projects. Rebuilding and sticking it back on one of these? Well, you’ll never make back what you have in it.

The main slide design: A very welcome addition, and a neat idea. I find that I am locked onto that thing when playing this tuba. We’ve already said here that the CC models need some work to play in-tune. I’ve seen some instruments that are wrapped differently that don’t have this Marzan tuning slide design, and I assume those are the later models towards the end of their production run. I think the CC tubas definitely need it up top. At least, mine does. The BBb tubas are actually really solid, and I found myself not having to use that slide much, if at all.

3) Intonation

Okay, let’s get into it. As I get older and wiser, intonation has become much more important to me. This tuba needs work, but nothing is unmanageable.

Let’s compare it to the HB-21, for instance. Many of those feature a too-low Eb below the staff, even with the 3rd slide all the way in. If one were to cut that slide, then the bottom space Ab would be wickedly sharp. Even more than it already is. That is unmanageable to me.

This tuba - With the main slide out about an inch or so, Bottom line Bb and bottom space A are pretty sharp. Below the staff F is pretty flat. Also, Middle line D and Db are also flat. So, push or pull accordingly, and it’s fine. The rest of the horn is mostly okay with the main slide out that inch or so. I don’t mess with the valve slides, since the main slide is right there. I have them out to where things feel the best.

Compared to my Willson F, or my 2165, both of which require very minor adjustments, this one definitely has a learning curve. But it doesn’t have anything SO flat or sharp with no solution.

Looking at other similar 4/4-ish instruments from Eastman, Miraphone, or Meinl Weston, any of their instruments blow this one out of the water in this department. This, however, is a sub-$3,000 C tuba. You will not find that anywhere.

4) Response

Yeah, it’s good. Believe it or not, it responds better in the low-ish range than my former Hirsbrunner HB-2P. Even with only 4 pistons, I have no problem playing in the cash register. It does, however, crap out around low D, but that’s expected. It just runs out of gas. I don’t think anyone will have an issue with how these respond.

5) Ergonomics

This section is entirely personal. We are all built differently, with different heights, arm lengths, widths, etc. I will perceive how an instrument feels to hold and play differently than somebody who is shorter or taller than me. That said, I’ve sold many tubas because they just aren’t built to a tall person’s frame.

This is the first 4-ish/4 tuba that I’ve felt totally comfortable playing. I can sit up nice and tall, back off the chair, and the mouthpiece is at just about a perfect height. Additionally, because the valves are mounted at that slant, my wrist doesn’t have to bend at all. Now, I don’t have any arthritis or joint problems, but if one did, a valve set at a natural slant would be a great choice.

All in all, I am still very happy with this tuba. As a budget friendly, smaller sized CC, it checks all the boxes. I’d encourage anyone to go play test one of these, again, either BBb or CC. They should be more popular.