No hires

[Paulver]

Anybody noticing an increase of "no hires" following orchestral auditions?

[bloke]

I'm not sure, but aren't you sort of an older person or no?
I remember a ton of these over the years.

As these organizations are required to hold auditions, what should we expect?

[Mary Ann]

What I have noted locally is that often the candidate has already been selected and the audition is meaningless; usually a local player who has already subbed. I'm sure this is less likely in high profile auditions for top tier orchestras, but the regional ones -- it's how things are done very often. You hire the player you know and like who does the job well enough.

[bloke]

In the past, music directors chose the musicians. These days they still often have a 50% or 51% vote.
I might guess that the music directors with the 50% votes are the orchestras where no one is chosen in a cattle call audition. Does that seem reasonable?
Cattle call auditions are potentially just as political as any other type. Whether or not there's a screen, it's not uncommon for at least one of the people behind the screen on a committee to know when their buddy is up there playing. After all, they all have phones, or somebody can tap their foot or cough a certain way.
Prior to the mandatory cattle calls, orchestras were pretty good. Not all the tuba players could play as well as Roger Bobo, and not all the principal horn players could play as well as Dennis Brain, but they were usually pretty darn good, and were hired surely based on their reputations as reliable as well as getting a + mark on the left side of the report cards for "works well with others".

[Paulver]

My daughter, some of her friends, and classmates (Eastman grads, Rice grads, other university grads and grad students) have been auditioning for a number of orchestras, from regional to orchestras in very, very, well to do communities across the country. Several of the orchestras announce after auditions, that they are hiring no one! After following the progress of a number of these musicians rather closely, this boggles my mind. I'm not insinuating that these specific individuals should have been hired, but rather, they are representative of the abilities of a plethora of musicians who could easily fit the bill of countless orchestras. I understand the finer points of the audition process, and I also understand that not all auditions are completely above board and somewhat dubious, but with this "no hire" stuff, they are passing on a number of incredibly talented players that would actually raise the existing talent level of the orchestra itself.

Unless the entire candidate pool was absolutely terrible, it would seem logical to me that they might pick the best candidate in an audition and at least offer a temporary contract/trial period to them. If, at the end of that period, the candidate proves to be unworthy, release them and search for a more suitable player. What is there to lose? It's like some of these orchestras are aiming way above their heads and their own talent levels..... especially the regional ones that are only pay per service or ones that are low salary.

These orchestras are seemingly, passing over a remarkably talented bunch of people, who are completely capable of performing to the level, or even above the level of the orchestra for which they're auditioning.

Additionally, some of these orchestras are earning reputations as "no hires", and word is spreading rapidly as to don't even bother with them.

[matt g]

Boston went through 3 formal rounds 20+ years ago.

I think the NYPO took 2?

There have been plenty of no hires in the past.

[Paulver]

I can understand NY and Boston, etc., having no hires in their searches.They're on an incredibly high level. But there are many others that are one or two, or even several..... many, steps below those that are acting like they are God's gift to the music world. Being a former music educator, I understand the hunt for the best.... I really do. But there comes a point where it becomes time to be realistic. Andrew Bain, Craig Knox, and Yo Yo Ma are never going to walk into an audition for The East Podunk Philharmonic in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania. And if, in a moment of suspended reality, they did, none of them would even think about taking the job.

My point is, that many of these lesser known, lesser "quality" orchestras are reaching for unrealistic goals in their searches for absolutely perfect players in every sense of the word, without being honest with themselves about how good they are, and in doing so, hurting their orchestra in the process. I'm not saying they should hire inferior players. I'm saying that they should know their abilities and limitations as an orchestra first. Then develop a plan for auditions that reflect realistic and achievable goals that lead to marked and visible improvement in a timely manner.... or their desire for sustained maintenance of a particular level of performance for said orchestra. Constantly shooting at a moving target without aiming in the correct direction first, simply wastes ammo and targets!!

Then comes their statements about their own high standards for professional players. Bull!!!! I've sat and listened to several of these orchestras in many areas of the country over the years, and I know people in some of these paid regional orchestras. Some are good..... meaning just that. They are no better than good! That's it..... not bad, but just good. And these are the orchestras I'm talking about. They aren't being honest with themselves in their search for quality players, and as a result, they're missing out on some fantastic players with unbelievable tone quality, spot-on interpretation, and technique. They seem to be looking right past them in search of the moon.

To be absolutely clear. I'm not referring to my own daughter with what I've written. She has her own plan for her professional future. I'm speaking about players that I've heard over the course of the last half dozen or so years that have been trying to break into an incredibly tight circle of professional orchestras on many different levels.

[bloke]

There are enough really remarkable and experienced players in their 30s who are seeking to move up from 15 to 30 thousand dollar orchestras to any orchestra which is offering a semblance of full-time pay that the difference between orchestras that pay X (vs. orchestras that pay 5X) is getting to be less and less, particularly when you factor in older players in the 5X pay orchestras who are hanging on to their jobs because they need the income and they really don't have any other skills, yet their skills are beginning to wane just a bit.

I believe this paragraph contains a more important point:
Most all boards of directors and executive directors respect the talent very little, and view them as "the help". Their strategies continue to be to figure out ways to pay the help less and less. This is not a good industry in which to become involved, unless one seeks to become an executive director with an income of somewhere between 5 and 30 times that of the help... I strongly suspect that a very large percentage of executive directors and board members don't even particularly like so-called classical music...
... to be even more blunt, not only is this a difficult industry in which to become hired, but it is also one that should be avoided.

Somewhat understanding the mentality of some hired orchestral musicians who are sorely underpaid in proportion to the hours required to prepare rehearse and perform their music, I suspect that many of them are psychologically hooked into the "all state band" mentality of their childhood. Even more than they enjoy performing the music (with some of them actually not particularly enjoying it anymore), I believe many feel as though - if they entered another industry, such as real estate sales or insurance or something where they could make a living - they would lose their fan base/celebrity, where (in reality) there really isn't a fan base/celebrity.

[Mary Ann]

I would also consider that the no hires are the consequence of a hung jury, which can certainly occur in an audition situation when the opposing sides are vehement about their choices.

[russiantuba]

St. Louis has had a couple of no hire tuba ones, Utah had one.

I was told something interesting from someone who has been on panels--it often that you have multiple who CAN do the job just fine, but no one sticks out as a clear winner and the committee can't decide.

[Inkin]

I was told something interesting from someone who has been on panels--it often that you have multiple who CAN do the job just fine, but no one sticks out as a clear winner and the committee can't decide.

This seems insane and really disrespectful to all the people who paid to go to that audition. This has gotta be a shitty rationalization and not reality. There isn't a single industry that would stare at an open position, see multiple candidates that are worthy and go "We won't hire any of these because we just can't pick".

Unless hiring per service for that position is cheaper than hiring someone for real and the people they are getting per service are good enough of course. It makes you wonder if the extra money from an endowed chair turns into general money or if it stays in the endowment so it lasts longer?

[bloke]

I would also consider that the no hires are the consequence of a hung jury, which can certainly occur in an audition situation when the opposing sides are vehement about their choices.

yes...the 50% MD vote vs. the 50% musicians-committee vote, as I outlined...
(tone-deaf MD's hear stuff that impresses but miss the stuff that will prove to be problematic.)

[matt g]

I was told something interesting from someone who has been on panels--it often that you have multiple who CAN do the job just fine, but no one sticks out as a clear winner and the committee can't decide.

This seems insane and really disrespectful to all the people who paid to go to that audition. This has gotta be a shitty rationalization and not reality. There isn't a single industry that would stare at an open position, see multiple candidates that are worthy and go "We won't hire any of these because we just can't pick".

Unless hiring per service for that position is cheaper than hiring someone for real and the people they are getting per service are good enough of course. It makes you wonder if the extra money from an endowed chair turns into general money or if it stays in the endowment so it lasts longer?

It’s the vanity of the panel. Why accept average* when they can do better?

*with average now being much higher than in the past.

[Paulver]

Accepting average isn't what I was talking about. The people I've been following and listening to, regularly, are way beyond outstanding!!! Average is what you might get when you have to find someone at the last minute as a pay per service sub. At that point they'll take just about anyone to fill the seat.
There are people who are just great on their instruments, and they are working lousy jobs outside of their playing.... just to have an income. These folks are going to auditions all over the place, paying airfare, carfare, trainfare, buying gas, paying for hotel rooms, and eating at McDonald's three times a day, so they can have a shot at finding a decent job playing their instrument, only to get slapped across the face with a no hire. It's just not right.

I can see instances where it's the best decision for a committee to make, but it's happening way too often. It's become an automatic default position for countless orchestras. For crying out loud, if a committee can't make a decision after the final round, then call the two best ones back in again and see if one screws up somewhere along the line!!! If it's the three best, call them all in again! What's it gonna take...... an extra half hour? You're gonna find one that rises above the others at some point. If it still ends in a dead heat.... so be it. THEN call it a no hire!! But not before!!

[russiantuba]

I was told something interesting from someone who has been on panels--it often that you have multiple who CAN do the job just fine, but no one sticks out as a clear winner and the committee can't decide.

This seems insane and really disrespectful to all the people who paid to go to that audition. This has gotta be a shitty rationalization and not reality. There isn't a single industry that would stare at an open position, see multiple candidates that are worthy and go "We won't hire any of these because we just can't pick".

Unless hiring per service for that position is cheaper than hiring someone for real and the people they are getting per service are good enough of course. It makes you wonder if the extra money from an endowed chair turns into general money or if it stays in the endowment so it lasts longer?

Another thing to consider is those auditioning are having to essentially compete against someone who might have 30-40 years in that chair (or more!), who have learned to play in that orchestra, having to compete to those standards. I hear this happens in military band auditions frequently.

If you have multiple people who can do the job and make finals in an audition, and the panel can't come to a consensus, I do agree that they should do a trial and essentially a 4th round, but offering a trial with the orchestra MIGHT be against the contract.

[Mary Ann]

Trial with the orchestra: I'm sure this cannot happen now but I remember a true story (pretty sure) about a percussionist who was hired. At the first rehearsal, he screwed up something, I guess, the conductor started over and redid that spot, apparently the percussionist screwed it up again, and the conductor said to him, "You can go now. Don't come back," and that was that.

I personally think that trial with the orchestra should be mandatory. It's not like tuba players are like concertmasters or first chair woodwinds (or horn) -- almost never is there a big whopping solo, although there are prominent parts. What matters is can they play with the group and do it right?

[matt g]

Accepting average isn't what I was talking about. The people I've been following and listening to, regularly, are way beyond outstanding!!! Average is what you might get when you have to find someone at the last minute as a pay per service sub. At that point they'll take just about anyone to fill the seat.
There are people who are just great on their instruments, and they are working lousy jobs outside of their playing.... just to have an income. These folks are going to auditions all over the place, paying airfare, carfare, trainfare, buying gas, paying for hotel rooms, and eating at McDonald's three times a day, so they can have a shot at finding a decent job playing their instrument, only to get slapped across the face with a no hire. It's just not right.

I can see instances where it's the best decision for a committee to make, but it's happening way too often. It's become an automatic default position for countless orchestras. For crying out loud, if a committee can't make a decision after the final round, then call the two best ones back in again and see if one screws up somewhere along the line!!! If it's the three best, call them all in again! What's it gonna take...... an extra half hour? You're gonna find one that rises above the others at some point. If it still ends in a dead heat.... so be it. THEN call it a no hire!! But not before!!

My point is that the “average” for many of these auditions is quite high now when compared to the past due to people having access to a lot more information about playing now.

Couple that with the audition panel being biased by hearing best of the best engineered recordings when prepping for these situations you have a problem where it’s hard to find a standout artist when in reality any of the final round (and probably semifinals) would do the job just fine.

Again, the panel is expecting perfection even when it’s possible not deserved. That’s because they are vain and the standards of playing have gotten higher.

[MikeS]

Here is a story that illustrates the kind of power conductors used to have. Allen Kofsky played trombone in the Cleveland Orchestra from 1961 until 2000. George Szell required the trombones to play Conns, and Kofsky really did not like the one he had. Someone from King, in nearby Eastlake, Ohio heard about this and offered to make a horn for Kofsky. Allen was interested. Continuing in Kofsky’s words.

“I told them it had to be exactly like the one I was playing, same color, same laquer, because Szell had visual hearing. When he saw something, he thought he heard it. I told them I would not tell a soul about this and they were to say nothing. They agreed to make the horn and I used it successfully for about six months. Szell, it seemed, never knew, but one morning he asked to see me with my trombone. When I walked in, the manager was there too.
Szell said to me: “I understand that you are playing on a different instrument.”
I didn’t know what to say. I told him I’d been playing it for quite a while.
“Why did you change without my permission?” he asked, glaring at me. “Contractually you are to be playing the instrument I tell you to play!”
Unhesitatingly I protested: “That trombone is terrible. I tried to talk to you about it but you always turned away. Has there been something wrong with the sound?”
“No,” he said. “I didn’t notice anything wrong but somebody told me you are playing a different horn.”
Szell pounded on his desk, yelled, screamed and had a tantrum. I thought I was finished and done for. He then issued the following instruction: “Tomorrow morning bring the trombone you played for the Sibelius Second a couple of weeks ago.”
“This IS the trombone I played it on, this new one,” I insisted.
But he was adamant, so the next morning I carried both instruments to the stage and played the Tannhauser Overture on both instruments.
“Hmph, they do sound similar. Play the introduction to Act III of ‘Lohengrin.’”
I did on both instruments. Then I played the Sibelius on both and he said: “You know, they are not only similar, they are identical.” “That was what I was trying to tell you,” I said and he replied, “Yes, but it was still without my knowledge.”

Just as an add on, Szell required orchestra members to wear coats and ties to rehearsals. They were also required to wear coats and ties at all times when on tour. Principal trombone Robert Boyd was a jogger. For runs on tour he would use hotel freight elevators and service entrances so there was no chance Szell might see him in a tee shirt and sneakers.

[bloke]

I'm pretty sure that you have the story details fairly correct, but King was the brand that Szell required the players to use. The King factory was/is right there in town, and I'm sure they donated money to the orchestra.

[Mark]

Another thing to consider is those auditioning are having to essentially compete against someone who might have 30-40 years in that chair (or more!), who have learned to play in that orchestra, having to compete to those standards.

When the Boston Symphony was holding auditions to replace the retiring Doug Yeo, I attended a master class Yeo was teaching. He talked about the current auditions for Boston and said, you will not be compared to the other auditionees. You will be compared to me, the bass trombonist they have heard for the last 27 years.