The version of the PCK on the Horn Guys page looks pretty wiiiide and a lot like the 6450!
From HG’s page…
- IMG_0935.jpeg (78.09 KiB) Viewed 525 times
Hogging out a Willson rotor to unRotax it…?
Forum rules
This section is for posts that are directly related to performance, performers, or equipment. Social issues are allowed, as long as they are directly related to those categories. If you see a post that you cannot respond to with respect and courtesy, we ask that you do not respond at all.
This section is for posts that are directly related to performance, performers, or equipment. Social issues are allowed, as long as they are directly related to those categories. If you see a post that you cannot respond to with respect and courtesy, we ask that you do not respond at all.
-
bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19323
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3852 times
- Been thanked: 4101 times
Re: Hogging out a Willson rotor to unRotax it…?
I'm not discussing this further, because I've seen the two (3050 & PCK) side by side, and not just in 2D pictures. Plus, it's just not interesting, and I'm just not looking for argumentative discussion about something of so little consequence. All mentioned are large.
Don't misinterpret as a brush off; you're just fine with me.
Don't misinterpret as a brush off; you're just fine with me.
Re: Hogging out a Willson rotor to unRotax it…?
Sure is ok with me. It was your redirect.
As a last comment, a quick thumbnail survey (which I would have to believe is incomplete) counted over a dozen different inner and outer bow configurations for the PCK shown in pictures on the internet leading up to the version noted above on the Horn Guys website. That’s quite an evolution/variation. Who knew?!
You’re ok with me, too!
As a last comment, a quick thumbnail survey (which I would have to believe is incomplete) counted over a dozen different inner and outer bow configurations for the PCK shown in pictures on the internet leading up to the version noted above on the Horn Guys website. That’s quite an evolution/variation. Who knew?!
You’re ok with me, too!
-
bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19323
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3852 times
- Been thanked: 4101 times
Re: Hogging out a Willson rotor to unRotax it…?
(The the thing that probably makes me seem cocksure is that I was still borrowing the 3050 when I purchased a PCK.)
Re: Hogging out a Willson rotor to unRotax it…?
I 100% have no doubt that those two were similar in many ways and fully believe you. I have learned that the 3050 and those PCK’s (like the one you owned and sold to that nice, young fella that moved north) could both be snuggly put into an MTS 1207 4/4 hard case. Their profile had to be very similar.
Now, according to another lurking friend, the PCK’s inner and outer bows changed in later years and it became wider framed with slightly bigger outer bows that were more openly wrapped (explaining the Horn Guys picture with the 6450). It then would barely squeeze into the large framed MTS 1209 or biggest SKB cases, either of them with the all guts removed (accessory box, etc.). Sounds like it was a series of running changes. Unrelated to profile, the leadpipes shrank, too! (I think these are the only ones I’ve ever seen in person.)
Interesting tidbit: At one point the PCK was assembled from a kit that was sent to B&S where they completed assembly, buffed, prepped, and silver plated them in their tanks before sending them back to Hamburg. Sounds like that was happening in the pre-Buffet years. Deutsche Teamarbeit!
Well, I apparently have had too much time on my hands the last couple of days. All this was pretty interesting, at least it was to me! I might need a hobby…
Now, according to another lurking friend, the PCK’s inner and outer bows changed in later years and it became wider framed with slightly bigger outer bows that were more openly wrapped (explaining the Horn Guys picture with the 6450). It then would barely squeeze into the large framed MTS 1209 or biggest SKB cases, either of them with the all guts removed (accessory box, etc.). Sounds like it was a series of running changes. Unrelated to profile, the leadpipes shrank, too! (I think these are the only ones I’ve ever seen in person.)
Interesting tidbit: At one point the PCK was assembled from a kit that was sent to B&S where they completed assembly, buffed, prepped, and silver plated them in their tanks before sending them back to Hamburg. Sounds like that was happening in the pre-Buffet years. Deutsche Teamarbeit!
Well, I apparently have had too much time on my hands the last couple of days. All this was pretty interesting, at least it was to me! I might need a hobby…
-
bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19323
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3852 times
- Been thanked: 4101 times
Re: Hogging out a Willson rotor to unRotax it…?
I recognize the PCK (at least early) valve sections as being the same as those used on those Italian tubas. I don't know whether that's the same company that the Dutch company bought when they decided to add brass instruments to their percussion instruments. The early Baer popularized) versions were so thin that I sort of wondered if the bows in the bell came Czechoslovakia...but I'm making no claims as I have no knowledge.
Re: Hogging out a Willson rotor to unRotax it…?
In some pictures of them in lacquer and unlacquered brass finish, seams can be seen. I don't remember ever seeing that on Cerveny’s this late, but I don’t know enough about them either to say if that aligns. The valves I’ve seen in person are Bauerfeind (owned by Adams now?). The earliest ones were Nirschl (sounds like via Hirsbrunner) like everyone else, but I’ve only seen those in pictures.
Check this out. This fella from Oslo posted about the “mother of all PCK’s.” Looks like the original narrower frame. He states it’s not as tall as it looks in the picture.
I love this kind of tooba history stuff! Anyway… I gotta rehang blinds and curtains!
- Clipboard Jun 19, 2024 at 4.07 PM.jpeg (50 KiB) Viewed 394 times
- Clipboard Jun 19, 2024 at 4.08 PM.jpeg (58.01 KiB) Viewed 394 times
- Clipboard Jun 19, 2024 at 4.08 PM.jpeg (70.52 KiB) Viewed 394 times
Check this out. This fella from Oslo posted about the “mother of all PCK’s.” Looks like the original narrower frame. He states it’s not as tall as it looks in the picture.
- Clipboard Jun 19, 2024 at 4.24 PM.jpeg (76.51 KiB) Viewed 394 times
I love this kind of tooba history stuff! Anyway… I gotta rehang blinds and curtains!
-
bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19323
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3852 times
- Been thanked: 4101 times
Re: Hogging out a Willson rotor to unRotax it…?
I was delighted with how much easier it was to hold upright and play (so much less weight)...and there were way fewer wonky tuning issues though still plenty...
...I found myself (PCK) mostly retreating to the first three valves, as anything that involved 4 felt (and I believe sounded) "funny".
The 5450 was a great improvement over the PCK and - certainly - over the borrowed 3050. I kept the 5450 for quite a few years.
I messed with a Wisemann (sonic/response improvement over PT6-P, but a build-quality step backwards) for a few months...' too many (as with the PT6-P) 6th partial annoyances...so I pulled the 5450 back out of the corner of the room.
Every time (now) that I play any C instrument, they remind me of why I kept trying out another...and another...and another...
B-flats all have their quirks - and the response thing is always a trade-off - but I believe more B-flat choices are less wonky, though the "computer/algorithm" jazz has allowed manufacturers to produce more embraceable C (not U
) instruments lately.
...I found myself (PCK) mostly retreating to the first three valves, as anything that involved 4 felt (and I believe sounded) "funny".
The 5450 was a great improvement over the PCK and - certainly - over the borrowed 3050. I kept the 5450 for quite a few years.
I messed with a Wisemann (sonic/response improvement over PT6-P, but a build-quality step backwards) for a few months...' too many (as with the PT6-P) 6th partial annoyances...so I pulled the 5450 back out of the corner of the room.
Every time (now) that I play any C instrument, they remind me of why I kept trying out another...and another...and another...
B-flats all have their quirks - and the response thing is always a trade-off - but I believe more B-flat choices are less wonky, though the "computer/algorithm" jazz has allowed manufacturers to produce more embraceable C (not U
) instruments lately.Re: Hogging out a Willson rotor to unRotax it…?
I CC what U did there…!
I had a 5450 for a number of years. It was from that first batch. I had the chance play all 11 (9 silver, 2 lacquer) when I bought it. There was a definite fun factor. In the end, someone else reeeally wanted it more than I liked it, so I sold mine, too.
Pretty much all modern and modern versions of Euro-tubas have been run through that computer analysis. As I understand it, it can tell makers where to change things like leadpipes and bows to improve pitch and response. Seems like a good thing. I think it would fun to play with!
I had a 5450 for a number of years. It was from that first batch. I had the chance play all 11 (9 silver, 2 lacquer) when I bought it. There was a definite fun factor. In the end, someone else reeeally wanted it more than I liked it, so I sold mine, too.
Pretty much all modern and modern versions of Euro-tubas have been run through that computer analysis. As I understand it, it can tell makers where to change things like leadpipes and bows to improve pitch and response. Seems like a good thing. I think it would fun to play with!