Champion E-flat tuba @ Baltimore Brass

[WC8KCY]

Hey all...

I'm looking around for a compact 3V E-flat tuba and not much has been turning up. There's a Champion E-flat tuba at BBC that's been there for quite a long time. Has anyone here given it--or one like it--a test play and, if so, what were your impressions? Thanks in advance...

[bone-a-phone]

Wessex had/has the smaller Bombino and the larger Champion. 3 + 1 Eb compensators. I had a Bombino, and it was really small. Hard to do much with it. The Champion was more widely accepted as a small brass band style horn. For a couple of years after they were initially released, they were sold out and hard to get. And they probably sell used now for the same price they sold for new 8 years ago.

The break in was really the tough part of Wessex stuff. If the valves and slides work, and its not damaged, it should be a decent little Eb.

[arpthark]

The "Champion" branded tuba at BBC is a tiny, ~100 year old European 3v instrument.

https://baltimorebrasscompany.com/p-150 ... -tuba.aspx

Last time I was there, I did not give that one a toot, but the caveat on the website of "This instrument is an antique and was not serviced in our shop" gives me pause.

@WC8KCY, I scour the net daily for things like this and forward tubas to people who may be interested. I can add you to my list -- you're in MI, right?

[Mary Ann]

You might ask @acemorgan what he has -- it is a 3 valve Eb that has a great sound and easy to carry around. I sat in front of him in a band and thought he had bought a BBb.

[WC8KCY]

The "Champion" branded tuba at BBC is a tiny, ~100 year old European 3v instrument.

https://baltimorebrasscompany.com/p-150 ... -tuba.aspx

Last time I was there, I did not give that one a toot, but the caveat on the website of "This instrument is an antique and was not serviced in our shop" gives me pause.

@WC8KCY, I scour the net daily for things like this and forward tubas to people who may be interested. I can add you to my list -- you're in MI, right?

Thanks...yes, I saw the "not serviced in our shop" line on the web. If it needs just a little bit of work, I'd have them fix it up prior to sending it out. What I can see of the leadpipe does not look good, though. That said, if someone here did give it a toot and observed that "It plays OK--it's just small", it might just work.

I'm doing three or so gigs a year strolling around retirement homes, indoors, in tight quarters with low ceilings and doorways, and also switching between clarinet and tuba on stage gigs. A sousaphone just doesn't work, and my Holton Monster E-flat is too big and heavy. An "alto euphonium" sized E-flat is what I have in mind. A small Martin/IBICo would be at the top of my list, but the usual Besson, B&H, Buescher, Conn/Pan Am, Holton, H.N. White, and their stencil horns would be just fine, too. I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd let me know if anything decent turns up. I'm in lower Michgan, not too far from Interlochen.

[Kevbach33]

The "Champion" branded tuba at BBC is a tiny, ~100 year old European 3v instrument.

https://baltimorebrasscompany.com/p-150 ... -tuba.aspx

Last time I was there, I did not give that one a toot, but the caveat on the website of "This instrument is an antique and was not serviced in our shop" gives me pause.

@WC8KCY, I scour the net daily for things like this and forward tubas to people who may be interested. I can add you to my list -- you're in MI, right?

Thanks...yes, I saw the "not serviced in our shop" line on the web. If it needs just a little bit of work, I'd have them fix it up prior to sending it out. What I can see of the leadpipe does not look good, though. That said, if someone here did give it a toot and observed that "It plays OK--it's just small", it might just work.

I'm doing three or so gigs a year strolling around retirement homes, indoors, in tight quarters with low ceilings and doorways, and also switching between clarinet and tuba on stage gigs. A sousaphone just doesn't work, and my Holton Monster E-flat is too big and heavy. An "alto euphonium" sized E-flat is what I have in mind. A small Martin/IBICo would be at the top of my list, but the usual Besson, B&H, Buescher, Conn/Pan Am, Holton, H.N. White, and their stencil horns would be just fine, too. I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd let me know if anything decent turns up. I'm in lower Michgan, not too far from Interlochen.

A Wessex Bombino could just be what you're after if Chinese is ok. Spec wise it's about the size of an old King medium Eb (the small Eb that was on the Bay last month is even smaller), so 15" bell, 31" tall and only 15 lb, plus it's compensating. With the right approach, it's quite punchy.

I occasionally call my Bombino a "bass euphonium."

[Sousaswag]

The best of the old 3v Eb’s I’ve played still isn’t a wonderful everyday instrument, but, the old small Kings, either front or top action, had decent intonation.

There was one listed very close-by to where I live that was in excellent shape. Not sure if it sold, but it was way too much $$$ for a tuba that can only play down to low A.

[WC8KCY]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm not interested in a brand-new tuba, and have not been pleased with the three Chinese wind instruments I've owned thus far.

I've got a Martin Indiana E-flat sousaphone and a Holton Monster E-flat upright that both play well; the smaller one I'm in search of now is just for occasional playing in tight spaces, and only needs to be "good enough". It's going to be like the pawn-shop Bundy trumpet you use on certain jobs when you don't want to risk your pro horn getting banged up.

[acemorgan]

My first Eb was $300, and took another $600 to get it playing right. It was about 120 years old. My second Eb was $900 and played well when I got it. It was about 60 years old.

Based on the pictures, the Champion looks like something from the Simonetti Museum, and probably requires considerable work. If I wanted a decent, used, 3-valve, small-ish, non-Chinese Eb, I would plan to spend about $1,000. Your results may vary.

[MiBrassFS]

Unlike other brass instruments, the size variation of tubas has always been much wider, 1/4 size to 6/4+ size in every key. One thing about the Eb tubas from the first half of the 20th century that is important to consider is that most all of them, regardless of size, were designed around what would be judged by today’s standards as very small, shallower, bowl cupped mouthpieces. For example, take the Conn “Giant” mouthpiece that was included with their very large “Giant” model Eb tuba. It was anything but giant! While the instrument itself sought to mimic a BBb for use in the bands of the time, the “Giant” mouthpiece was much closer to what we would now use on bass trombone. Today people plug in their usual piece, which is in general huge, wide and deep, compared to these older mouthpieces, and everything goes pretty wonky. Do these early small mouthpieces fix everything? Well, no, but they do give the player a fighting chance at success. If you don’t have an appropriate vintage mouthpiece, a modern shallower mouthpiece like what we use on F tubas today is a good start. So, next time you pick up an old (hopefully, not too leaky because then all bets are off…) Eb tuba, try a smaller, shallower mouthpiece and remember they had a different approach.

[WC8KCY]

Unlike other brass instruments, the size variation of tubas has always been much wider, 1/4 size to 6/4+ size in every key. One thing about the Eb tubas from the first half of the 20th century that is important to consider is that most all of them, regardless of size, were designed around what would be judged by today’s standards as very small, shallower, bowl cupped mouthpieces. For example, take the Conn “Giant” mouthpiece that was included with their very large “Giant” model Eb tuba. It was anything but giant! While the instrument itself sought to mimic a BBb for use in the bands of the time, the “Giant” mouthpiece was much closer to what we would now use on bass trombone. Today people plug in their usual piece, which is in general huge, wide and deep, compared to these older mouthpieces, and everything goes pretty wonky. Do these early small mouthpieces fix everything? Well, no, but they do give the player a fighting chance at success. If you don’t have an appropriate vintage mouthpiece, a modern shallower mouthpiece like what we use on F tubas today is a good start. So, next time you pick up an old (hopefully, not too leaky because then all bets are off…) Eb tuba, try a smaller, shallower mouthpiece and remember they had a different approach.

It really depends on the tuba.

My 1937 Martin Indiana E-flat sousaphone plays OK with just about anything; I use a Holton copy of a Bach 12. A Holton copy of the Bach 7 works nicely, too.

My 1929 Holton Monster E-flat is a different story. A Schilke 66 responds well and tunes best with it. Before that, I went down to Custom Music and tried most of the PT-series mouthpieces with the Holton, settling on a PT-62...an F tuba mouthpiece. Big mouthpieces yield awful intonation on the Holton.

Quite some time ago, I test-played a very old, tiny Buescher E-flat with a triple-digit serial number using a Bach 18. The tuning was fine and it put out a shocking amount of really decent sound. Sadly, the Champion couldn't possibly be a stencil of that one.

[arpthark]

To MBFS's point above, I have an odd little "All*Star E Bass" mouthpiece here that is way shallower and smaller than I would use on anything else. Works great on my small 1890s Boston and Distin.

[WC8KCY]

To MBFS's point above, I have an odd little "All*Star E Bass" mouthpiece here that is way shallower and smaller than I would use on anything else. Works great on my small 1890s Boston and Distin.

The All Star mouthpieces were included with Pan American instruments, some of which were also quite small.

[MiBrassFS]

Certainly there’s no absolutes. Each player is different. Each situation is different. When troubles do arise, it’s good to keep in mind the original home base for any instrument. In this case the home base can often solve some challenges.

[humBell]

Any luck finding a workable wee eb?

Was gonna comment i might have thoughts of ebs i like, but that is too open ended for this thread.

As per the one mentioned at BBC, looking the pic over, i would expect it to take a smaller shank than most would expect. I mean a really small shank, not just typical eb shank. Other than that thought, i expect it could meet the needs of the limited use ya want.

If i tried to be more of a BBC sales person rather than an Eb ambassador, you could call 'em up and ask directly? Also if i recall an earlier thread a few years ago, their stock of smaller older "as-is" instruments doesn't necessarily make it to the online inventory. That thread i think may have specifically referring to helicons, but it is also worth asking...

Anyway, sorry if i am too little, too late to be too useful...

[WC8KCY]

Any luck finding a workable wee eb?

Was gonna comment i might have thoughts of ebs i like, but that is too open ended for this thread.

As per the one mentioned at BBC, looking the pic over, i would expect it to take a smaller shank than most would expect. I mean a really small shank, not just typical eb shank. Other than that thought, i expect it could meet the needs of the limited use ya want.

If i tried to be more of a BBC sales person rather than an Eb ambassador, you could call 'em up and ask directly? Also if i recall an earlier thread a few years ago, their stock of smaller older "as-is" instruments doesn't necessarily make it to the online inventory. That thread i think may have specifically referring to helicons, but it is also worth asking...

Anyway, sorry if i am too little, too late to be too useful...

I've been away on holidays for the last week, and haven't been looking. The search will resume in a day or two.

I've got a couple of jobs coming up in about a month for which it would be nice to have a small E-flat available; if nothing turns up in time for that, the next chance to deploy one won't happen until next March or April. Surely something decent will pop up by then.

[GrecoTrombone]

I'll do y'all one better... Give you an answer from the horses mouth (bell?)

Just picked it up off the wall... It's a very small receiver. Too small to properly fit a LS trombone mouthpiece even. But too large for a euro trombone mouthpiece... It's... Uh... It's interesting. It plays, but it's a bit stuffy. Weight wise, might as well be a euphonium.

If you're looking for something to toot on, it'll be fine. If you're looking to perform with it, I'd suggest checking it out first and then making that decision.

[WC8KCY]

I'll do y'all one better... Give you an answer from the horses mouth (bell?)

Just picked it up off the wall... It's a very small receiver. Too small to properly fit a LS trombone mouthpiece even. But too large for a euro trombone mouthpiece... It's... Uh... It's interesting. It plays, but it's a bit stuffy. Weight wise, might as well be a euphonium.

If you're looking for something to toot on, it'll be fine. If you're looking to perform with it, I'd suggest checking it out first and then making that decision.

Thanks for the insights!