What am I doing?

[Sousaswag]

Hi all, LONG post ahead.

Many of you may be wondering why my signature now says “Meinl Weston 2165” instead of my usual 5450RA Tuono. Many may also wonder why I've been buying a bunch of parts.

That’s because I’m now playing on a 2165.

Several months ago I played on a production model 6450 that I simply adored. Fast-forward another few weeks and I came into that Holton 340 for $300, and I couldn’t get that 6/4 sound and feel out of my brain.

Try as I might, I couldn’t get into a 6450 for what I consider a reasonable price. I wasn’t interested in spending over $15,000 on a 6/4 C tuba. I don’t play enough to justify that.

My reasoning for moving away from the 5450RA and, in general, rotary CC instruments, was mainly comfortability. I feel so much more comfortable on my big Holton due to mouthpipe height and valve placement that it was enough to convince me to give a big CC a shot. I already knew that the Eastman/ZO/Nirschl instruments would be too low mouthpipe-wise to consider, so I had to do some serious thinking. My arms are also REALLY long, which makes many rotor tubas just uncomfortable for me.

To be COMPLETELY candid: The 5450 and 5450RA are both excellent instruments.

*I could be completely fine with any instrument for the amount of playing that I do.*

Literally any of my past CC tubas would be fine (Miraphone 1293, MW Thor, MRP-C, HB-2P, MW Tuono). Some may also say “David, stop being so picky and just play the tuba!” I hear you. Until my tuba switching isn’t feasible, I’ll keep doing it until I find what fits me.

My other tubas, I've been happy with. Even the newer ones. But the big C has been something I've been trying to figure out for the last few years.

END OF CHAPTER ONE!!!

Fast forward to March of 2024. I decided it’s time to be done with really expensive, stock, silver plated instruments that are much too pretty and expensive to mess with. It’s time I fit something to me, rather than try to make something work that was made for the masses. This was brought about from the mess of my run-over-in-the-past Willson 3200RZ that I’m having rebuilt with some quality of life modifications made.

I’ve known about the 2165 for a long time. They get a lot of hate for being heavy and hard to play. Warren Deck was playing during the “make everything bigger” era, which meant the 2165 came stock with a huge mouthpipe and large main tuning slide section.

Any 2165 in professional use today has been significantly modified from the stock form. I've played a few and really liked them.

Readily available in 2024 were two MW 2165 tubas. One from our good friend Matt G, and the other from one of Dr. Tindall’s students. Both of them had qualities that I liked and disliked.

END OF CHAPTER TWO!!!

Since I knew I was going to mess with the horn, I wanted raw brass. Or, at least, lacquer that I didn’t feel bad about stripping. Say what you want, but I’m knowingly going to make big changes to this tuba. Raw brass allows for that.

So, I was going to buy the horn from Tindall’s student. That is, until another one popped up for $2,000 less, WITH a Cronkhite bag, and, what looked like a 45SLP mouthpipe.

My best friend is in graduate school at FSU, where this tuba was located. I trust his opinion, highly, and asked him to play it. I asked him, “With no WEIRD alternate fingerings, give it to me straight. Can you play it in-tune, is it in good shape, and how does it respond?” He gave me the green light, said that for what I’ll use it for, knowing I’ll mess with it, it will be just fine. So I bought it. Open partials line up. Excellent.

It comes to me tomorrow.

Now, friends, if you are selling an instrument, PLEASE get it cleaned before you do. This isn’t the first time I’ve had to bring a freshly-purchased instrument to the cleaners, and it’s just annoying. Either clean it, or knock $500 bucks off the price. (This seller did do that for me, THANK you!)

The bend of the pipe on this horn is definitely not stock. I suspect it may already have an SLP pipe on it. We’ll have to do some measuring.

Just in case, Matt Walters pointed me to the Allied A220 mouthpipe that he said is about 98% as responsive as the 45 pipes, so, if it is the stock large pipe on there, Keith Polito has an A220 set aside for me to put on. I also tentatively ordered a 6450 pipe through a local Buffet dealer.

Also, I didn’t notice this when I first bought the tuba, but it DOES have the small piston set. This is what I purchased the MAW valves for.

So, what’s next, you ask?

The big thing is the mouthpipe. This is a big reason why the 2165 in stock form is such an air hog with “wide” slots.If it is a 45SLP pipe, just a re-location will be perfect. (For those unaware, the 45SLP is an F tuba with a MUCH smaller mouthpipe that has since been put on the Meinl Weston 2265, 3450, 5450, 6450, and probably many others).

I like how this tuba looks. I believe it’s Kevin Ildefonso’s. [

Notice how the pipe would come over the top brace, but hopefully NOT be York-style. I just don’t love 45 degree angled pipes. If it literally cannot be this way, fine, I’ll deal, but if I can help it, this is what I want. My own Holton 340 will be the “template” for this.

This one here now belongs to Aaron Tindall. This one has subtle differences. I think it has a Meinl 2000 valve set on it, but this is the mouthpipe angle I’m trying to avoid if at all possible. [

I may also remove or relocate some braces. The braces that hold the first slide to the bell have varied placement depending on the time the tuba was made. Some have 2 here, some have 1, some have been moved to where they are on the 6450. It really depends on where the mouthpipe goes. (My B&M needs a brace from the outer 1st slide to the bell… One of these may be my sacrificial lamb…)

The extra guard wire on the back of the bottom/top bows: Bye. Don’t want it. On such heavy tubas, shedding some weight will be nice.

The heavy, old style top and bottom valve caps: Also, bye. Keith has made replacements for Nirschl tubas, and I’d like him to make some for this tuba as well, if, for nothing else, to modernize it a little bit. Unnecessary? Maybe. It’s my tuba! I’ll do what I WANT!

The fifth valve lever is mounted in the same place on the Baer, it just comes up higher. When we put the thumb ring on, the lever will likely have to be extended.

The thumb ring I got from Voigt is the exact same as the 6450, and will go on this tuba.

Finally, I would like to have somebody make or replace the main tuning slide so it’s the size it is on the 6450. Martin Wilk has done it before, but I’d like to hear from any of you. What is the difference in bore size with these two tubas (2165, 6450)? Since it’s pretty much impossible to get parts from Buffet, I’m going to assume something will need to be made.

After that, we’ll basically have a "poor man's 6450."

I also picked a mouthpiece setup that I thought would work well for this tuba. I ordered a 33P rim in gold as I used and loved the PT-88 on my 5450, and then FINALLY found a home tuba for my Orchestra Grand. I knew I kept this around for a reason!

I think I’m running out of stuff to say. Here’s the main points:
Clean
Strip Lacquer
Fit MAW valves
Re-bend or replace mouthpipe - Current, A220, or 6450 (on order)
Fabricate updated valve caps
Replace thumb ring
Mess with 5th lever
Shrink main tuning slide taper
Add water keys to 3rd and 4th lower loops (where they leave the pistons)
Remove extra guard wire stuff
Add pull stops to slides 1, 3, 4

Most of the stuff in this list will be able to happen when I have the tuba cleaned, as I have the majority of the parts on hand already. I’m excited to get this going. The only thing up in the air is the main tuning slide.

Anyway, if you have any questions, please ask. This is one of my favorite topics! Fitting a horn to you is hard. Stock instruments are not for everybody, they’re for the masses. This horn will be modified to my preferences and what I like in a big horn. Pics tomorrow when I receive it in person.

[Sousaswag]

Okay, it's here!

First impressions: Can't tell you a THING about how it plays. I looked at it, took photos, and had to run. Now, as I study it at about 10pm, knowing I won't play it until tomorrow, I can tell you only about mechanical/physical observations.

First: the MAW valves will indeed need to be fit into the casings. This is a GOOD thing, as they'll fit tightly. The original pistons fit fine and work well. Zero side-to-side play, compression is good. The corks have become brittle. I broke one in half while trying to put a MAW in. Oh well. It's getting cleaned very soon.

Mouthpipe: Until Keith and I take measurements, I can't be sure it is a 45SLP pipe. I suspect it is, as I said yesterday. What I am ecstatic about is the HEIGHT of the mouthpipe. It is at the EXACT same height as my Holton's pipe is, which means I, at 6'3" FINALLY feel totally comfortable holding and playing a CC tuba. YES!!!

Mouthpipe angle: While it may not look like it, the pipe does come off the bell at about a 45 degree York-style angle. MAYBE I'll have it messed with, maybe not. If Keith will do it, it shouldn't be a big bend at all. That is contingent upon keeping this pipe. I'd like it to wrap around the bell just a bit more.

Bell: It did indeed have a tone ring in it at some point. Wherever it is, it's gone now. I would've pulled it out anyway, but whoever did that did a horrible job of cleaning it up. We'll have that addressed, too. It also needs some dent work. There's just a bunch of pings in it.

Big bows: More dent work needed, mostly minor. What does make me sad is a punch in the bottom guard. As much as I'd like it fixed, I doubt it's going to happen. Boo.

Slides: All move, and all move REALLY well. This is good. Not well enough to fall out of the tuba, but well enough to easily move while playing. Again, excellent.

Lacquer: Yeah, it'll be stripped. It's had enough dent and solder work (mouthpipe) that I don't feel bad about it AT ALL.

Thumb ring and 5th lever: I cannot think of a WORSE place they could've put either of these things. Who in their right mind thought this was a comfortable location? I mocked up my new ring from Voigt and found a comfortable place, zip-tied it in place, and traced the braces in marker so I remember where I liked it. The 5th linkage will certainly need to be extended.

Receiver: Rats. It's American shank. All I have is Euro stuff.

Enjoy some photos. I'll update when I play it tomorrow. I'll also bring it by Keith's place to plan out what all we're going to do to it. Everything listed in my previous post. I'm also thrilled it came with a Cronkhite bag. It's also in great shape.

[
Lookin' good!

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Next to my Holton 340. Brothers from another mother!

[
Bohm & Meinl, Holton, Meinl Weston. Notice the very close mouthpipe heights between these three. I am one happy camper as far as physical comfortability with these three!

[Sousaswag]

Update #3

I brought this tuba to Keith today. We had about an hour or so discussion and tried to find a buzz from somewhere on or in this horn.

In discussing what I want to do with it, Keith made some very good points. Basically, he said that were he looking for a big tuba, something like this is what he'd be looking for. First, because of the price I paid, but second, it's in pretty good shape, but it's NOT something that either of us would feel bad about "Hot rodding" so to speak.

It needs a good amount of work, that in our discussion, I decided to go ahead and have ALL of it done. If this tuba weren't as in-tune with itself as it is, I probably wouldn't have done all of this at once. But it's scary how in-tune it is. Truly.

In no particular order:

Clean
Strip lacquer, and chemically patina so it's really dark. Think Adams' antique finish. That's the look I want.
Fit MAW pistons, while taking off as little material as possible
Remove a few braces and all the extra guard wire
Bend leadpipe to a more comfortable position, and re-seat it to the bell
Make new top and bottom valve caps (Originals are SO heavy)
Dent work. Lots and lots of dent work.
Track down the buzz (it sounds like something is in the tuba)
Replace thumb ring with Voigt ring, add new 5th lever

Speaking about the dents: This tuba has a LOT of "big tuba" dents all over it. Mute dents, small creases, and some punches in the bottom bow. The back of the bell has a LOT of shallow dents that, in the right light, looks terrible.

I decided to have Keith pull the bell and bottom bow, as well as the bottom guard, to get them all completely smoothed out and dent free. This tuba deserves that. It will look and function like new. Surprisingly, the top bow is pretty much dent free. Good deal. In our discussion, he and I agreed that if we do all this other work, leaving the bow and guard in the shape they're in would be a poor choice. I keep my gear in really good shape, and this will be no different.

Some have asked me why I'm going to these huge lengths with the thumb ring. I can't stand tubas without thumb rings. The hand position on stock 2165's is literally horrible. I took a photo to show you what I mean.

[
You can see here that my thumb is below my index finger with that stock ring and 5th lever placement. Almost in line with my middle finger. It is SO uncomfortable. Who thought this was a good idea? Those of you with small hands or short fingers would hate this more than me.

I also zip-tied the Voigt ring to where I think it should live. Compare that to where my thumb lives now, and you'll see why I'm so insistent upon this being done.

I don't have much else to say here. It'll be a few weeks, between this tuba and my F tuba. This shouldn't take nearly as long as the F tuba, thankfully. I know this is a LOT of work all at one time, but it'll be worth it when it's all said and done. In Keith's words, "You'll have two tubas that professionals would die for."

YMMV. I will be completely happy with these tubas, I think, when I have them back and they are the way I want. It's been a long time coming, folks. Thanks for reading.

[Sousaswag]

The buzz: FOUND! It's got a broken brace. We noticed when someone gripped the lower 5th slide tightly, the buzz stopped. This is why. Good, good, good!!!

[

[arpthark]

Always satisfying tracking down a random buzz or rattle!

[TheGrewster]

Hi there! Whatever happened with your Tuono? Did you end up selling it?

[bloke]

...so not Wade's amazing Holton, then...

[Sousaswag]

I sold that Tuono back in March. The very nice gentleman who purchased it seems to be tickled by it. It’s in great hands, which makes me happy.

This 2165, I still don’t have back. I’m not sure when I will, either. It seems to be *almost* done. Most of the major work has been finished. It still needs the thumb ring and 5th valve linkage done, the MAWs fit, and the 45SLP leadpipe put on.

[Sousaswag]

For those curious, here is where the tuba is as of yesterday:

[

It LOOKS like all the major dent work is finished, which is great news. The horn has been in pieces for quite some time. That's on me, as I did ask Keith to pull the bottom bow and guard to get that large dent out of it. I'm glad I did, because it would've bothered me, but man, did I not understand how big of a job that is. I'm glad somebody was willing to do it.

I think there's only a few things left to do:

Install new thumb ring and adjust 5th valve linkage to fit
Fit the MAW Valves
Bend and fit the Baer leadpipe
Cut down the heavy valve caps (they'll look like the caps on current MW/B&S tubas)

I don't think it will be too much longer. Fingers crossed!

(It may look like the bell is beat up. It's not. And never has been. The finish is messing with the light reflection.)

[York-aholic]

MAW valves? I thought you had those for the B&M or 2165 and had Holton valves (1-3 and an additional #3) rebuilt/replated.

You've had so many tuba projects going, I can't keep them all straight!







Yes, I'm jealous...




.

[Sousaswag]

Heh. Sometimes I can’t remember what I have here and what I have out.

I bought the MAW valves for this tuba. When I posted about those, I may have mentioned that they fit in the B&M because it’s the same valve block. But I always intended using them in this tuba. They’ve been hanging with Keith and this tuba for a while.

I also didn’t expect this tuba to need as much repair work as it did. That’s probably why I paid what I paid for it. You know how it goes. Once you get into it, it’s hard to stop if it’s not totally right.

I originally intended to just make the leadpipe, thumb ring, and MAW valve changes to the tuba, but if I did all that, and left the tuba in the condition it was in, well, that would’ve been stupid. Better to do it all at once.

Oh yeah, and my project list:

I had that F tuba out for a L O N G time. Now, it’s mostly finished.

Then I gave him this one for a L O N G E R time. Unintended, but he’s got a ton of work! It’s almost done, I think.

In between these two, I got myself into that Holton project. That valve block is done and ready to attach slides to, but I need the bell front body to be done before I consider that. Not even close to being done.

[York-aholic]

Whoops, I mixed up the 2165 and Holton 345. My mistake in not looking closer.

You may continue.


You in regards to Keith

are going to be like us and our horse vet.

I'm pretty sure I've paid for her recent (vet) truck purchase.

[Sousaswag]

I see that guy more than my doctor at this point

We’ve become pretty good friends over the last year. It certainly is nice that we live in the same town. And like I’ve said many a time, I can only speak positively and highly about his work.