American in Paris (et al) - first rehearsal

[bloke]

There are a lot of things in there marked mezzo forte in the low brass in the Gershwin. The music director is having us play most everything quite loudly, just about to the point that we sort of feel like pigs, but I have to admit that - when my friend has set up recording equipment in that same space in the past, and has recorded concerts for our personal review - when we are just about blowing our tails off, on those recordings we just sort of sound "about right", so we're just going with it, and are trusting our very capable music director.

We didn't play all the way through all the pieces on the program during the first rehearsal. We neither played all the way through Pacific 231 nor American in Paris (nor Bolero for that matter, as tonight, the music director wanted to go ahead and get all the way through the pianist's pieces) and we didn't get to the tuba solo in the Gershwin that all of you know. If you have never laid eyes on the entire part to the Gershwin, what you don't know is that there are several passages for the tuba which are considerably more challenging and just as exposed as the solo with which tuba players are typically familiar. Also, though the piece is mostly divided up into two beat and four beat per measure sections, there are constant subtle changes in tempo that need to be respected and executed. Watching a video of the piece being danced to or listening to recording, those subtle tempo changes seem so natural that the listener might not be particularly aware of them, but it's a little different listening to and enjoying a piece like that vs. actually producing a performance of a piece like that.
There are actually some passages in there that I would consider to be audition worthy (other than the solo in C major which appears on some audition lists from time to time).

If anyone saw me post that I was planning on playing this concert on F tuba, the two times that I sat down at home and went through the Gershwin part a little bit, I did play it through on F, but at the last minute I decided to grab the stubby Holton B-flat tuba. Believe it or not it, wasn't for the C major solo that everyone knows, but the reason I grabbed the B-flat was in consideration of that first major slow section in 4/4 where the tuba and bass trombone drop those bass notes on beats one and three of the first measure and then all four beats of the second measure, and repeat this pattern. I just thought that those bass line events needed to feature the old school fat sound that the stubby Holton tuba offers. Those of you who have played it know what I'm talking about, and maybe some of those of you who have listened to it enough times also know of the section to which I refer.

Pacific 231 is a piece that is supposed to sound like an old steam locomotive starting up and heading out on an excursion. I'm pretty sure the title of the work is the actual name of a specific old locomotive. There's an exposed solo for the tuba in that piece fairly early on. It's not very difficult and features a C sharp above the staff, but it's much more of a sound effect than any sort of lyrical line, and - with the F tuba - it sounds a little bit too much like music, rather than a steam locomotive. I guess that sounds odd, but it's a fact, and that's another reason for using the B-flat at the last minute. At the very beginning of the piece there's a low passage for the tuba that - potentially - could have been a lyrical passage, other than the fact that the entire passage is flutter tongued.

I suspect that not too many of us have played Pacific 231, and perhaps a few more of us have played American in Paris. As old as I am, this is my first time to play American in Paris. To be perfectly honest, I've watched it danced to on television numerous times and I've watched orchestral performances of it on television a few times, but the only live performance of it that I've ever attended was when my daughter was 18 (playing the first oboe part as a freshman) in the Eastman Orchestra for their first concert of the year. At that time, plane tickets were cheap, car rentals were cheap, hotel rooms were cheap, and I didn't have to buy a ticket to go hear my own daughter perform, so I just jumped on an airplane at the last minute and went up and listened. That was over a quarter century ago.

I feel lucky to be able to cover the Honegger and the Gershwin this weekend. Bolero? It's always fun to listen to all the individuals and sections have their crack at their solo passages and to be in the middle of the experience of the long gradual crescendo. ...the programmed piano pieces? I could live without them, but they are what they are.

Sorry, no charts nor graphs.

[MiBrassFS]

If anyone saw me post that I was planning on playing this concert on F tuba, the two times that I sat down at home and went through the Gershwin part a little bit, I did play it through on F, but at the last minute I decided to grab the stubby Holton B-flat tuba. Believe it or not it, wasn't for the C major solo that everyone knows, but the reason I grabbed the B-flat was in consideration of that first major slow section in 4/4 where the tuba and bass trombone drop those bass notes on beats one and three of the first measure and then all four beats of the second measure, and repeat this pattern. I just thought that those bass line events needed to feature the old school fat (American tuba) sound that the stubby Holton tuba offers. Those of you who have played it know what I'm talking about, and maybe some of those of you who have listened to it enough times also know of the section to which I refer.

So, then you have switched to BBb! Good on ya, mate! No chicken dance for bloke!

[UncleBeer]

Pacific 231 is a piece that is supposed to sound like an old steam locomotive starting up and heading out on an excursion. I'm pretty sure the title of the work is the actual name of a specific old locomotive.

Nope. The numbers describe the wheel layout of the locomotive. It's called a Whyte notation. In this case, each side has 2 pilot wheels, 3 driving wheels, and one trailing wheel.

I was lucky enough to learn this in a music history course!

[MiBrassFS]

There you go learning stuff again.

[bloke]

Thanks for the clarification.
I only know a little bit about GM-EMD (d-e) loc's and even less re: GE and Alco (I've only ever spotted one or two RS-3's)...and none of those make any of the cool noises heard in the piece.
I did read a quote of the composer, whereby he claimed that the piece is not really intended to sound like a locomotive - to which I sort of raised my eyebrows.

The B-flat - in my view - will sound better (to review: in one case more musical and - in the other - less so) for those two pieces. The huge Miraphone might have been even nicer for the slow 4/4 dance's bass line, but I don't believe I could have made the slowish high tessatira solo in the locomotive piece as "sound-effects-y" with that instrument.

The Holton offers an interesting advantage of much of the sonic phatness of a 19"-bell contrabass tuba, yet the clarity of a bass tuba (and without the wonky intonation that many of the large-bore/large-mouthpipe F tubas bring to the table).

most all other passages in all of the programmed works: whatever (ie. any ol' tuba)

[kingrob76]

With a work like the Gershwin I find it to be an interesting mental exercise to try and imagine what Gershwin heard in his head when he wrote the part, and then to try and emulate that sound. Was the piece initially performed by Geib or Vanni (who played F tuba almost exclusively) in 1928? I suspect they had quite different sounds. Did Gershwin hear tuba as a bell front or upright bell instrument, bell front would've been more in use at the time than today. What tubas were "popular" in 1928? These are the kind of things I think about just a little bit when trying to pick the tool for the job at hand. I don't dwell on it either way, but, I do consider it.

I would think the Holton is a nice compromise of factors, a very safe choice and easy to make work in the current setting.

[arpthark]

If the title's any indication, shouldn't you be playing it on one of these?

[kingrob76]

If the title's any indication, shouldn't you be playing it on one of these?

I'm not a Gershwin-ologist, but, I don't think he spent THAT much time in Paris and spent much more time around Broadway....

[tubanh84]

If the title's any indication, shouldn't you be playing it on one of these?

I'm not a Gershwin-ologist, but, I don't think he spent THAT much time in Paris and spent much more time around Broadway....

I can just see it now. The orchestra dies away. The concertmaster takes over, plays the theme in a descending sequence. The music settles. The tuba player picks up his French C tuba, takes a slow, relaxed breath. The audience waits. And then.....Bydlo.

[bloke]

French tubas and locomotives probably could meet up pretty effectively right there on the rails. As far as Bolero is concerned, Americans are too accustomed to rock and roll. They want to hear that freaking loud ass bass when s*** gets really loud.


The same goes for the Honegger - another French-ish composer (Swiss) piece written during the French tuba era. Orchestras' dynamic range today it's just so wide (again, the rock music influence) that particularly a piece that attempts to imitate the sound effects of a steam locomotive need something that makes quite a racket, at least in my opinion, and I pretty much know for a fact also in the opinion of this particular music director - who has given the low brass "the hand" possibly two or three times - max- over the last decade.

I've pushed my sound to the max on all three of the major works on this concert, and I didn't even get a glance from the man with the stick (other than cues).

I suspect that - were he 30 or 35 years younger - he'd be driving a muscle car. His interpretations remind me very much of Solti's...ie. "Either we're going to do this, or we're not", etc. (and we are very happy to oblige).

[MiBrassFS]

Do suppose the other brass players would consider going period “French,” too? Peashooters all around!

Might be a hard sell, I guess.

[bloke]

Do suppose the other brass players would consider going period “French,” too? Peashooters all around!

Might be a hard sell, I guess.

I haven't done my homework on how early were the designs which were borrowed by the "classic" American manufacturers, but the so-called American trumpet is pretty much (agreed to have been, and I concur) patterned after the French Besson, with the E. Benge stock models being remarkably close.

For a long time - though principal trombonists throughout the world are plenty strong enough to use the .547" bore instruments to play high/loud principal parts, I've always thought that something like a King 3B and a 7C mouthpiece (or 6-1/2AL, or something like that) for playing most principal parts (other than alto trombone parts), a .547" bore on second, and a .562" on 3rd would be a section that could sparkle a little more (in other words, their sound would be more distinguishable from the sound of the horns) and do so without having to push the volume so loud as to cause balance problems...
... but I don't know anything. All I have are (not popular) opinions, no charts, and no graphs.
When I suggest this sort of thing to orchestral trombonists around me, I believe I'm picking up on the same thing that Wade talked about (in regards to tending to feel guilty when not bringing our 6/4 instruments to use in our orchestras - regardless of the repertoire).

Seems to me that - quite often - more audible and clearer sounds are those which sparkle more, rather than those emitted from gigantic funnels.

[tclements]

That AiP solo has to be played on a BBb or CC. It has to be big, warm, broad and beautiful. A bass simply does not have the depth of a contra.

[bloke]

Boy, you sure saved me from that one. It would have been just awful, and I probably nearly risked being fired.

' any specific suggestions of brands to consider?

[tofu]

With a work like the Gershwin I find it to be an interesting mental exercise to try and imagine what Gershwin heard in his head when he wrote the part, and then to try and emulate that sound. Was the piece initially performed by Geib or Vanni (who played F tuba almost exclusively) in 1928? I suspect they had quite different sounds. Did Gershwin hear tuba as a bell front or upright bell instrument, bell front would've been more in use at the time than today. What tubas were "popular" in 1928? These are the kind of things I think about just a little bit when trying to pick the tool for the job at hand. I don't dwell on it either way, but, I do consider it.

I would think the Holton is a nice compromise of factors, a very safe choice and easy to make work in the current setting.

The piece was premiered on December 13, 1928 in Carnegie Hall. Isn’t it likely it was Vanni? Do you know when he took over the seat? I wonder if there are any photos that exist from the original performance or rehearsal.

[bloke]

The place we play in is like a barn, and they actually have to do some minor amplification because of the acoustics. I'm not amplified, but I'm blowing my brains out to sound like mezzo forte up in the balcony, at least based on what I hear when my friend makes recordings with his laptop that he sets up there. The Holton B-flat puts out a broader sound than the F, but the F offers a great deal of clarity. That having been said the Holton does as well.

This is an experiment whereby our normal pops venue is going to be serving as a classical concert venue. All the people seated at the round tables on the main floor will be purchasing their expensive dinner tickets and bringing in their booze and table decorations as always, but - instead of being treated to pops - they're going to be treated to classical fare. Of course these are "light" classics, as this is the first try at doing a masterworks at this venue - as if it were a pops event.

[UncleBeer]

Orchestras' dynamic range today it's just so wide (again, the rock music influence) that particularly a piece that attempts to imitate the sound effects of a steam locomotive need something that makes quite a racket

Toby Hanks always said (and I concur) that smaller horns put out much more audible acoustic wattage than larger horns.

[bloke]

The bass trombone player bought a new larger tablet (still not 14" diag.) with apparently improved both audio and video at the local Walmart just before the first rehearsal. (They got a deal on it because it was "open box".) Here are some outtakes from the reading rehearsal ...They're just little ditties.

One of them is soli passages (with bassoons) that tuba players may not be aware of until they receive a copy of the rental part (and yeah, there are quite a few of us who have unauthorized access to things that we shouldn't have). I used some alternate fingerings to help with the slurs just a little bit.

the other: For some reason, my buddy liked the sound of the bass line that we're playing together. The music director wanted the beginning of this (4/4) section strong in the bass. I think it's too strong, personally. I'm probably going to leave it to my own prerogative and dial it down a little bit at tonight's concert.

https://www.facebook.com/edmorse466/vid ... 6428730887

https://www.facebook.com/edmorse466/vid ... 2318331066

He also caught the low range flutter tongue legato tuba solo at the beginning of the Honegger locomotive piece. I'll post that if anyone's interested. (??) Believe it or not, all seven of those words can go together to describe the passage (and I still didn't allow my lips to touch each other ). The last note of the solo is sort of covered up by another entrance, which is as it should be.
edit: ...OK... I just received notification of this link, so here it whether you are interested in hearing it or not:
https://www.facebook.com/edmorse466/vid ... 9499274303

[bloke]

brand-new (bought the day before, friend's) laptop...I believe the tone (treble/bass/etc.) settings need to be played with, yes? ' too much treble.

American in Paris:
(laptop's camera/mics from control booth) background hum, tinny sound, and didn't pick up enough of the tuba sound...was blasting my guts out - either believe me or don't...)




Bolero:
(snare drum was much cleaner than the laptop mic's indicate, and the beginning snare drum was MUCH softer than the recording indicates)
same with the tuba: I was literally KILLING that bass line (sound bouncing around in the hall), but not picked up by this laptop's mic very much at all.





Messina bags:
The new 3rd trumpet player is Mrs. Messina.

[bloke]

Someone else recorded the entire concert with their tablet (same place...immediately adjacent to the other tablet.

- same tinniness
- same (again: even though blowing my brains out) very little tuba in the sound
- same hum

Being that this concert was in (basically, a barn) a "civic center", the strings were mic'ed and some of the other instruments were as well...but no low brass mic. (That explains the crappy hum/distortion.)