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jtm wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:10 pm
I may be sensitive because this hits too close to home.

So when the presenter wrote “never prohibitive” under the socio-economic topic, you would have first hand knowledge that what the presenter was presenting is true.

The “socio“ part (not to be typed nor spoken without considering its meaning) is just as significant as the “economic“ part.
As an example, a phenomenon (since roughly the era that I raised up my kids) has been there there is a significant number of neglected children being not-supervised by their wealthy or becoming-wealthy parents, who are involved in either selling or using (or both) mind-altering substances to/with other children. ...the “junior drug dealer“ phenom, if you will.
Having seen some of those move into the adult world over the past two decades, many of them haven’t fared particularly well in much of any types of endeavors, not to mention “the bassoon“.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:56 am there is a significant number of neglected children being not-supervised by their wealthy or becoming-wealthy parents, who are involved in either selling or using (or both) mind-altering substances to/with other children. ...the “junior drug dealer“ phenom, if you will.

That was going on in the late 70s/Early 80s as well.

Or so I've been told.

Most, but not all of my friends made it.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:52 am

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:56 am there is a significant number of neglected children being not-supervised by their wealthy or becoming-wealthy parents, who are involved in either selling or using (or both) mind-altering substances to/with other children. ...the “junior drug dealer“ phenom, if you will.

That was going on in the late 70s/Early 80s as well.

Or so I've been told.

Most, but not all of my friends made it.

yeah...A significant percentage of those "Eddie Haskell's on steroids" (from my childrens' teen years) are - well... - dead.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:56 am The “socio“ part (not to be typed nor spoken without considering its meaning) is just as significant as the “economic“ part.
As an example, a phenomenon (since roughly the era that I raised up my kids) has been there there is a significant number of neglected children being not-supervised by their wealthy or becoming-wealthy parents, who are involved in either selling or using (or both) mind-altering substances to/with other children. ...the “junior drug dealer“ phenom, if you will.
Having seen some of those move into the adult world over the past two decades, many of them haven’t fared particularly well in much of any types of endeavors, not to mention “the bassoon“.

In educational research, "Free and Reduced Lunch" is highly correlated with SES. It's not the same, but it does get used a lot more, because FRL data is easy to obtain and SES classifications are not.

Roughly speaking, I think the whole problem with this is that a bassoon teacher (or any kind of "admissions" deciding person) has to be discriminating (able to recognize differences to exercise good judgment when making selections) without discrimination (using those differences in an unjust or prejudicial way to make those decisions). And I think that's what the presenter was attempting to do with that slide, but apparently was unsuccessful in that attempt.

With people having to be so incredibly careful about their word selection (tiptoeing around others’ sensibilities, while being afraid - with others already sitting on the sidelines with their biases, just waiting for someone to “slip up“ - of being labeled something horrible), we’ve ended up with nearly everyone not being willing to say much of anything about anything.

The term, “you people”, is offensive - regardless of who is attempting to stereotype whom.

What shall be done with the miscreant?

What say we rattle off a letter, legal and scholarly like, advising the deviant that if they fail to appear before the Star Chamber to testify against themselves, it will be looked at as an admission of guilt.

I know where we can get a copy of such a letter to boilerplate.

If you decline this invitation, we reserve any and all rights, including the right to establish at trial that your refusal to testify supports a strong adverse inference regarding your actions (and inaction) on __________.

Self-motivation and musical knowledge (assuming the bassoon is typically the realm of experienced musicians) sound about right. That rest of that slide is irrelevant, if not inappropriate.

If the school community believes it’s important to have a bassoon, tuba or other expensive instrument player, it should foot the bill. If a motivated kid is interested, they should get a crack at it. Period.

The teacher in question is due for a teachable moment (i.e., from another teacher or administrator) and that should be that. Their approach was certainly misguided, but not career ending.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:54 am What shall be done with the miscreant?

What say we rattle off a letter, legal and scholarly like, advising the deviant that if they fail to appear before the Star Chamber to testify against themselves, it will be looked at as an admission of guilt.

I know where we can get a copy of such a letter to boilerplate.

If you decline this invitation, we reserve any and all rights, including the right to establish at trial that your refusal to testify supports a strong adverse inference regarding your actions (and inaction) on __________.

Many people's reactions, attitudes, and the things that "trigger" them are very predictable - geographically, whether they currently live in a politically-identifiable geographic location, or grew up in one...and also: predictable by their age. When many people speak of "the government" or "the school", it doesn't seem (??) to occur to them who is funding those things. In fact, those who are funding those things are people who are struggling and sacrificing to provide special opportunities for their own children, while also struggling to meet local tax collectors' demands for things that - 50 and 60 years ago (when local sales tax rates were typically 1 cent per dollar, and property tax rates were typically about 15% of what they currently tend to be) - we viewed as "not expected to be furnished by others, who are already struggling to do for themselves"...which (again) is why several of us in a row managed to earn the principal chair in the all-state band with Conn's economy-line fiberglass sousaphone, school-owned off-brand mouthpieces, and only classroom instruction...

bloke "...and yeah...our high school owned a bassoon, which was probably the equivalent of some of the lowest-cost bassoons offered today...and we were glad to have it. One of our trombonists played it, when we played indoors, and his parents paid to keep it working. These are some of the houses directly across the street from my high school. Again: We were not fancy, nor one of those other words which people today seem to use to portray our life station.

jerseyeuph wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:24 pm
The teacher in question is due for a teachable moment (i.e., from another teacher or administrator) and that should be that. Their approach was certainly misguided, but not career ending.

My understanding is that the presenter is a private instructor. This is written from that perspective. He doesn’t get paid no matter how many students fail.

But I could be wrong...

Three Valves wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:59 pm

jerseyeuph wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:24 pm
The teacher in question is due for a teachable moment (i.e., from another teacher or administrator) and that should be that. Their approach was certainly misguided, but not career ending.

My understanding is that the presenter is a private instructor. This is written from that perspective. He doesn’t get paid no matter how many students fail.

But I could be wrong...

Perhaps the local band/orchestra director(s) will make an effort to help them see how they’ve gone astray.

I’m now remembering that we had a Leblanc metal “paperclip“ BB-flat contrabass clarinet (as Francis McBeth music was in such vogue, at the time) but we bought that with carwash and bake sale money.
Gas stations welcomed our carwashes, because we would park two or three girls in swimsuits out on the corner with signs, that would draw people in, and those carwash customers would also buy gas, beer, cigarettes, and snacks.

Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the road clean with our tongues. We had half a handful of freezing cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at the mill for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our Dad would slice us in two with a bread knife.

(Name the sketch)

I attended a small, relatively poor and overcrowded eastern Long Island high school in the late 70s/early 80s where the teachers were the worst-paid in the region at the time. Not among the worst-paid. The actual worst-paid. We moved to a new building (the town eventually had no choice but to fund and build) during my sophomore year, but there was clearly very little money for any ‘extras’ including any new gear for sports. The school community made sure that the music program, a source of local pride, was adequately funded. The vast majority of kids could not afford to buy or rent and played school-owned instruments. The band director worked his underpaid butt off to make sure they were in good working condition, even if they weren’t pretty. We looked a bit shabby, but we sounded pretty good. The community set a priority. Another community might set a different priority, for example, sports equipment. No priority will cater to every kid or family (and some may indeed disapprove), but every property tax paying family participates even if only through writing a check to the town every few months.

Everyone knows who pays for school programs and I’ll wager that fewer schools are shopping for bassoons, tubas and other expensive items than prior to the current economic meltdown. I predict that it will take years to recover. Communities will continue to have to reset priorities for the foreseeable future.

One way to avoid current economic meltdowns is to stop manufacturing them.

But I digress...

jerseyeuph wrote:(Name the sketch)

First and best:

https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k

Three Valves wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:36 pm One way to avoid current economic meltdowns is to stop manufacturing them.

But I digress...

Could be. Do we want to live in a world without new bassoons or tubas?

Yorkboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:02 pm

jerseyeuph wrote:(Name the sketch)

First and best:

https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k

Yep.

We didn’t think we were poor, because we lived in houses with heat, telephones, and food.
Our parents grew up in the 1930’s, and didn’t always have all of those things.
Further, we could get jobs and - after a couple of years - buy ourselves running cars for a few hundred bucks. I figured out a way to make a little bit more, saved for a little longer, and bought a little bit nicer car a year or two after some of my friends bought theirs...but the “my Daddy is buying me a car“ (or a fancy band instrument) thing… That just didn’t happen.
One sax player did have a Selmer Mark VI alto...His parents were divorced...His dad (a professional thief - really) did “get” it for him.
We thought it was pretty cool for the school to have a bassoon, and we thought it was pretty cool for the school to have three Conn fiberglass sousaphones.

jerseyeuph wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:13 pm

Yorkboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:02 pm

jerseyeuph wrote:(Name the sketch)

First and best:

https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k

Yep.

Upper Class Twits trying to out virtue one another. Some things never change!!

jerseyeuph wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:25 pm Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the road clean with our tongues. We had half a handful of freezing cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at the mill for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our Dad would slice us in two with a bread knife.

Luxury.