TubaForum.net

fwiw...
This is (barely involves or doesn't involve a lathe) how I deal with school-owned rotary-valves tubas whereby a rotor stem (not lost, but available) is broken off: (ie. the "good enough" fix)

> Drill down into the dead center of the rotor body (from the broken-off point).
> Tap (usually) an M3 x .5 thread into that hole.
> "Chase" the (same threads) stem threads with a tap (to clean up those threads).
> Screw a short piece of stainless steel "all-thread" (again: same thread) into the piston body coated with acid flux, and solder it in place.
> Very lightly "tin" the exposed threads with solder, and then "chase" the tinned threads with a die (so as to not prevent them from threading).
> Screw the broken-off stem (on to the "tinned" stainless steel all-thread (paying attention to "clocking" it back to its original position), and solder it back in place. Again, the stainless steel can't be too long, or else it will interfere with the rotor's center screw.
> One last time, chase the threads (from the top of the reattached stem) with a flat-bottomed M3 tap, to make certain that the center screw will screw down easily.
> Hope that this fix is (actually) "good enough", and charge 'em money.

With one of those crappy "axial flow" trombone valve (aluminum) stems, I've done the same thing - except with 24-hour epoxy. The epoxy held for years. I did this on a "professionally-owned" trombone, because it's owner told me that they were going to replace the valve...yet they never got around to replacing it.

bloke "Ridicule this, but - after I've done it - stuff works."

Several people have "medium-big" to "big" jobs here that are all somewhat close to being "done".

Of course, both of us having been sick (with me having to tend to Mrs. bloke and her menagerie, while I was still weak/recovering - as well as "faking" being strong, when I had to play here/there/yon) messed up plans for "moving stuff out of here".

If I took them "in order", logistics would be all screwed up.

As an example, the bass trombone (repaired yesterday), was to prevent a FUTURE 3-hour r/t from being necessary.
(yeah...It's "only one instrument", but it was an expensive repair on an expensive instrument...so they probably would have expected me to figure out a way to get it to them.)

I'm trying to drag THIS (84 B-flat) instrument to the finish line (ahead of the Holton) because I'll be seeing THIS instrument's owner on NYE, and I won't see them again until Valentine's weekend (gig).

The owner of the Holton almost had a "hand-off" worked out, but it would have been yesterday, and that tuba still needs a LONG (12 hours?) day of work to call it "absolutely done".

Mrs. bloke has a very special instrument to sell so someone - and it needs to be absolutely perfect...but she still has to stop (rather than getting it to the finish line asap) and service her regular (run-of-the-mill) school customers.

You will rarely see me buying bottom bow caps, because they are repairable.

I was already ordering from Miraphone, Christian Niedermayer (the consummate "nice man") was willing to cut me one to the same widths as this vintage one, it would fit in the shipping box, I already was paying shipping, and these aren't all that pricey (without shipping), so I bought this one.

I'm a bit tired (sweaty - 72 degrees: outside/warmer: in the shop, today) from straightening out the smashed bottom bow, but (as I removed all of the bottom bow dents WITHOUT removing the bottom bow...and no, I'm not "hiding" un-removed dents with this new cap ), It's just about time to put this thing on...

...but I'm going to wait, to avoid accidentally bumping a perfect/new part, whilst rasslin' with the instrument's remaining dents.

This tuba NEEDS to disappear from HERE, and into the arms of its OWNER.

All of the larger bows (and bell) are lookin' dern-good.
The inner bows are all dent-free.

I made up a punch list of what's left to do, to call this one "done" - as it's owner-and-family are headed here for NYE:
punch list on the 184:
- file down the stem on the new rotor - to fit into the stop arm.
- un-solder the large upper upside-down U-shaped (cylindrical) #4 circuit bow, to remove "peck" dents from that circuit.
(There are two LONG tube-to-tube parallel solder joints. Mrs. bloke will run the torch, whilst I pull a skinny wire down each side...hopefully: avoiding burning the lacquer.)
- remove dents from that (already removed) "G"-shaped tube - between the #4 rotor and main slide
- remove mouthpipe dents
- remove misc. dents from various tuning slide bows
- chemical clean interior
- install bottom bow cap
- install the bottom bow keel
- polish around on the instrument here-and-there (bare-and-scratchy places, plus the new bottom bow cap), and hit those places with rattle-can lacquer.
- replace the linkage carriage rod.
- adjust (possibly tighten up the linkage T-joints), and replace rotor bumpers
----------------
ie. It's looking really good, all of the huge dents are gone, and (being particularly capable ...) I avoided un-soldering any of the large body sections. I'm thinking this might end up being my first-ever blow through a 184 B-flat. (I've fixed up/played/sold a 185 B-flat.)

Definitely want to know how you think it plays.

One of the tougher admissions for me with my 186 was that I would not be able to work out the badly crushed bottom bow guard. I'm not good enough to make one that bad look brand new, and I felt this horn deserved a new one. Normally I work out the dents and creases as best I can and then fiddle with it over and over until it sort of fits, and then I have to use about ten or twelve loops of binding wire to get it on, and it still wants to gap open in some spots.

Choosing to add this expense to my horn's ever-lengthening list of parts was really worth it to me, in the end. It was much easier to cut a new guard from the square-ended blank I was sent. It was the slightly narrower one used today, but it still looks fantastic. It was the easiest bow cap installation I have ever done, too, as I had never installed a brand new one. To be honest, the cutting/shaping of the ends was the most complicated part, and that was mostly laying down the old one inside the new one and marking it with a Sharpie, then Dremmeling away the stuff I did not need, which I saved for scrap. (I got a ton of extra nickel silver out of that purchase because the blank is the length needed for the longer BBb bottom bow.)

Because the bottom was new I decided to spend on a new top guard, too, as the top was in good shape but pretty badly pitted. To have removed all that mess would have made an already-thin part "fragile".

In the end, the old guards went on the cut-down BBb because the guards for that tuba were torn in several places and I did not want to have to fix that. Again, I'm not good enough of a tech for that sort of work.

I think you did the best thing for this horn. The guard caps are like tires and rims on a car: They can make the look or ruin it. After all the wonderful work you have done to this, adding new NS to the big end just makes it that much nicer for a buyer. It *will* be appreciated. And while much of what we repair or replace does not directly influence the price nearly so much as the labor time does, THIS sort of upgrade *does* affect the value directly, I believe. Consider it the same as "curb appeal" when selling a house. This was money that was well spent.

Oh, and I picked up some tools that Dan O. advised me to get, and am currently learning to bend new guards (or repair old ones). I plan on slapping some of that shiny, make-it-look-more-expensive "Chineseium" onto my Holton and Kurath outer branches.

That ought to bump the selling price by at least two or three bucks.

This tuba is actually one that a friend bought off of eBay. They (a tuba doubler) are addicted to Miraphone, but - so far - nothing mainstream:
- bass trumpet
- left-handed oval alto horn
- straight-bell Kaiser baritone
- and (now) this…
———————————
Someone has to be a damn good friend for me to fix up their eBay crap for them; this is a damn good friend.

The (other) one here that I have (to sell) will be much easier to repair, and I don’t believe will even need to have the cap pulled off. Someone I’ve done business with before has already expressed interest in it, so I may not even show pictures of it in progress. (If-and-when I buy stuff that needs to be repaired, perhaps - ?? - (over time) I’ve become a bit more shrewd - at least, in my own estimation. ie. If it’s something that requires only hours - instead of days (or a week) - to slick out to sellable condition… and if it’s something that’s desirable to quite a few others, I’m possibly willing to pay more. By looking around in the attic above my shop, I’ve learned that the ones that have stayed up there for years and years are the ones that need a week or more of repair work, in order to make them sellable. ie. The price of used merchandise - for resale - isn’t everything that goes into whether it’s something that I might view as worthy of buying…and stuff that can potentially sell for a lot but needs a ton of work… Well, I have plenty of work already, and - probably - the last thing I need to be doing is to be “buying myself a job”)

bottom bow guards:
For a King, Holton, or York 4/4, The only real choice (new/ready to install) is a skinny thing that Conn-Selmer now supplies for the “new style“ King.
If I want something to look vintage/American, I really have no choice other than repairing the original cap - as you saw with my Holton project (whereby I fixed up a smashed King bottom bow cap and installed it on the Holton bottom bow, and fixed up a smashed King upper bow cap and “convinced“ it to fit on the Holton’s upper bow). Per typical, someone had discarded the original Holton (4/4) cap (aka: routine disaster) in order to rub out the dents, and stuck sousaphone guard wire on it. You know that I’m not going to settle for something like that, and nor am I going to settle for some two-inch or three -inch wide cheap-looking Conn-Selmer thing.
repairing originals: I just use the dent machine.

When I am taking in dent work for these Frankentuba projects, though, I’m going to have to rethink what I charge for a cap-off-and-back-on bottom bow restorations… I’ve not been doing it “for cheap”, but it’s just a ton of work to really do it as it should be done, and money - quite clearly - isn’t going to be worth a crap… with the only people who believe otherwise being the “I’m the smartest guy in the room” Pollyanna-ish Keynesian space cadets…but I digress
ACTUAL UPDATE:
Mrs. bloke and I went out to the shop again after a late dinner, fired up the torch, she ran the torch down each side of that wide #4 circuit bow (that is soldered all the way down to other bows - on both sides), and I pulled a skinny wire under it as she heated it. We did not burn the lacquer, and got that piece off the instrument in less than two minutes.
I could conceivably imagine finishing this instrument tomorrow, and really sorta need to (if I want to make any decent money off of fixing it).
Having typed all this crap, perhaps I should’ve spent five more minutes working on the instrument, instead…(??) I’m still really curious to find out about playing a B-flat version of this model. I just found out (text, while typing this) that my time is going to be squeezed even more, because Austin Howle is bringing one of his tubas by, today. … and - while I’m typing as if some sort of early 20th Century stream-of-consciousness author - I hope he doesn’t get caught in a tornado (promises of severe weather, beginning before lunchtime) on the way up here.

Not a comment on YOU, but on that specific word: shrewdness.

My Great-Depression-childhood-WWII-Bomber-Pilot-lifelong-military grandfather (the one who taught me expressions like "The Devil's beating his wife," and "That boy's about a half a bubble off plumb.") once told me that "shrewdness" is a word used by sneaky ba$tards to describe themselves or other sneaky ba$tards."

I loved that man.

His best one, in regards to me personally, was in reference to my new earring (back in 1989). I was visiting, and of course, he noticed it, but he held his tongue; I could see him staring at it as the afternoon wore on. Eventually, we were on the couch in the "front room" (their version of a parlor) sipping some nice martinis he had shaken for everyone.

I finally asked him point-blank what he thought about it. I was smiling and fully aware that he was about to flame me in front of my girlfriend, who was the person responsible for my getting pierced.

He told me this little story.

When I graduated Multi-Engine (the last of several flight schools the Army sent his crew through prior to them flying across the Atlantic to Italy in their B-24 Liberator) I came home for what they called Terminal Leave to say goodbye to everyone before we transitioned to Manduria (their base in Italy). All officers in the military were issued one of those newfangled wristwatches. We used these on every mission, and they were a lot more convenient than the still-popular pocket watches that my Daddy still used. Up to the War, wristwatches had been very much a thing worn by women. Even in the Great War the officers frequently synchronized troop movements with a pocket watch.

Your Great Grandpa saw the watch on my wrist and started in on me for wearing a lady's watch. I explained to him how things were, and how fashions change, and that after the war it would likely be commonplace for men to wear them because they were "better".

I was sure he was going to say something tacky to me, but he just nodded, taking in this information.

Then he said, "Well, I guess time marches on and things change. But pretty soon you'll be squattin' to pee."

Then Grandpa pointed at my earring and said, "That earring is okay, I guess; at least you didn't get one of those damned tattoos. But please try to pee standing up, at least when you're in my house."

attic:
Wow, that’s cool…
Wow, that’s cool…
Wow, that’s cool…
Etc., etc., etc…

each one of them:
Hey, this one would only require 40 to 80 hours of my time (time that others are asking to buy) to fix it back up into something really neat.

bloke “no longer thirty years old, and probably not all that many ‘40 to 80 hours’s of work’ left inside of me”

I edited in a little story while you were posting the above. Give it a read. My Grandpa was a funny guy.

the elephant wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:35 am I edited in a little story while you were posting the above. Give it a read. My Grandpa was a funny guy.

the elephant wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:12 am
My Great-Depression-childhood-WWII-Bomber-Pilot-lifelong-military grandfather... *and the rest of an excellent post*

The wit, wisdom, common sense, and ingenuity of that generation is to be cherished, although it seems to be in short supply these days. A book filled with stories like this ought to fly off the shelves for the tremendous inherent value. Or so it seems to me...

About the only books/stories/articles/speeches/etc. - that speak (actual) truth to (actual) power - anymore, are banned.

Whatever.

me wrote:OK...
I'm going out to see if I can finish that 184...

Mrs. bloke wrote:The dog dug himself out of the pasture again, last night. I rounded him up - and have him in the catch pen, but there's a new place in the fence where we need to fill in his digging, cover the ground with some more of that (salvaged) fiberglass "econo gas station restroom wall sheeting", tie a couple of cinder blocks to the bottom of the fence, and - oh yeah - trim his claws, so we can put him back into the pasture.

me wrote:great

UPDATE:

All's right in doggie-pasture land, The 84B is out of the cleaning solution, and a bunch of "dead" (loose, due to epic dent/crease removal) lacquer was either loose or had fallen off...I'll probably end up stripping the bell interior, exterior (down to the engraving seam), and polish about 1-2 inches on the bottom bow (out PAST the new cap)...plus some upper cap polishing and other misc.

As of now, the only remaining dent removal is my cable-pull and flex-cable beat-out mouthpipe dents method...

...but solder-solder-solder-solder...

No gig is as easy as it represents itself to be.

They'll be here tomorrow, but I still think that I have have it finished - if I get on it after breakfast.

WE INTERRUPT YOUR REGULAR PROGRAMMING FOR A NEWS FLASH:
After 20 years, the valleys on our standing seams metal roof have FINALLY been installed CORRECTLY, and - with any luck - won't leak anymore. This was EXPENSIVE, but - sheesh !!! - worth it.

As can be seen, the bottom bow cap is on, and I scrounged and found a (not Miraphone) keel that I could shape into one that would resemble Miraphone, and installed it.
This bottom bow cap-and-keel installation & first-pass buffing cut-down/clean-up (yikes ! ) took over an hour an a half:
- The bottom bow is the 50-years-ago 184 B-flat ONLY size (whereas - later - the B-flat and C 184 bottom bows were the SAME), so this 2021 cap had to be "convinced" to fit on this bottom bow.
- Of course, I had to trim the ends (with my sheet metal sheers) to the trademark "dome" shape.
- again...I had to scrounge up a keel, cut on it, file/shape it, and install it.
- I forgot my reading glasses, so I was doing a bunch of it by "feel".
- The torch nozzle was falling apart, and I was too lazy (and too glued to the task) to stop and unpack the new one that I had bought.
- As this tuba has never been taken apart, I installed this cap ON the entire tuba, which was slightly unwieldy.

Oh yeah, (though red-rotted, and probably will need to be replaced sometime before this tuba's owner croaks) I removed a bunch of bad mouthpipe tube dents...and that always sucks up time.

I also got the #4 circuit (on the back) stuck back together, today.

oh yeah...and the bell is completely smoothed out (also today), too.

...so tomorrow, I'll be reinstalling the connector between #4 rotor and the main slide, doing considerably more buffing, hitting all of those areas with rattle-can lacquer, checking the linkage T-joints for wiggle, and (yea ) then stick it together and toot on it.

When I remove dents from the portion of the mouthpipe that wraps around the bell, the mouthpipe always looks smaller afterwards, because the factories oval them when they bend them, and - when I pull dent balls through them - I make them round (removing the oval wideness).

taking a ten-minute coffee re-energizing from buffing dead lacquer from the bell flare interior/exterior. (10-something A.M.)

I ran a 3-cornered scraper (fairly aggressively) around the edge of that new bottom bow cap.

It's looking like it very will may be finished (ie. "all that I'm willing to do for this instrument"), today.

The last BIG (little) thing is to hook the main slide back up...and well-aligned.

Then, there are circuit tuning slide bow dents, but that's really not anything.

update:
I cut the 5-sided stem (on the new rotor) down to fit the original stop arm...and put that replacement rotor back into its casing (with the original bearing...It STILL spins (even though not "surgically clean") so that's very good news.

I've got a little bit more lacquer to cut off this instrument, but I'm probably going to go ahead and put the rotors in their casings (no linkage) before I do that.

I checked the four T-joints, and they're are tight-as new...so I'm thinking that the original #4 rotor body must have been busted SEVERAL decades ago, and (during it's first decade of life) lived a VERY HARD life. (??)

Making good progress. Enjoying the updates.