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Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:26 am
by scottw
"My biggest issue is moving passages beyond quarter notes or runs where my brain and fingers auto default back to BBb fingerings no matter how much I try to flip the switch."
That has been my experience playing BBb for many years, then adding Eb later in life. I am fine with Eb until there arises some technical passage, then I have to fight a default to BBb. I like to think of it as a brain fart.
Ironically, I started playing on Eb; it wasn't until I went to college that I abruptly switched to BBb. Of course, I was much younger then and transition came much easier!
If you want it, then go for it--it'll make you stronger.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:45 pm
by hrender
Sousaswag wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:36 pm
The whole BBb to CC thing really isn't that hard. It took me maybe 3 weeks to feel totally comfortable. You already know all the fingerings, but now they're just shifted a step...
This.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:05 pm
by GC
I took 24 years off from tuba to play bass exclusively. When I started back up, I bought a monster CC tuba that took months for me to be comfortable and automatic with fingerings. About the time I got really used to it, I switched back to BBb because of intonation problems with the horn.
I've been playing Eb since 2004 and Eb-only since 2009. I still have BBb senior moments in the low register or sometimes in technical passages. If I ever pick up a BBb to play in a church as a sub, I have Eb moments. Some of us will never get away from that, but repetition makes the brainfarts go away. The more you play it right, the more you'll get it right.
The biggest irritant is when I play something I played on BBb in high school or college and still have memorized from then. I memorize pretty much automatically, and It can be hard to shift. Sousa marches and old concert warhorses are the worst.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:13 pm
by donn
Yeah, I did that today. Started out with the Eb practicing for this show, but switched to BBb and really got plenty of practice in on it. I think perhaps only one mistake due to key - middle line D with 2nd valve -- oops, that isn't the right note. Those fingerings can be really pernicious.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:27 am
by Doc
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:44 pm
iHeartLowBrass wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:57 pm
I have this weird feeling that the 495 Hagen might be the answer but I've never seen them available in the U.S.
Don't really like the look of those. Not saying they don't play or sound good, but I think 1/2 of it for me is visual aesthetics.
iHeartLowBrass wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:57 pm
I have this weird feeling that the 495 Hagen might be the answer but I've never seen them available in the U.S.
I'm not a huge fan of the 187. The 495 is nice, and I'm sure Matt Walters can hook you up if you wanted. If you're going to buy a Miraphone BBb, I'd stick with a 186 or a 496. But that wasn't your question.
But in answer to the question...
BUY THE 188 ALREADY!
The 188 (especially the early to mid 80's vintage) are superb tubas in every way. If you've always wanted one, and this one is highly desirable and affordable, get it. And if you decide it's not for you, a solid 188 will definitely sell.
And you didn't ask, but here's my answer on how to approach this new adventure:
I'd spend the bulk of your practice time the first week playing songs, tunes, scales, arpeggios, etc. by ear/from memory
away from printed music. Just get used to the instrument. Get to know it. Get acclimated to the instrument itself without regard to "the right fingerings" so you can associate sounds/feel with buttons before taxing your brain with fingerings and "correctness." Establish new neural pathways associated with SOUND, not ink on a page. Enjoy the tuba on its own first so the tuba doesn't start off as a mental burden. Mentally equate the tuba with fun/joy/excitement, not some PIA to learn. Just enjoy making nice sounds (and dare I say, "MUSIC") on it
completely away from printed music. Start adding simple printed music for reading practice into your routine, and gradually increase the reading difficulty as you master the simple stuff. But do NOT stop playing songs/tunes/scales by ear. Keep the love affair going with the instrument itself and establish a great relationship with it away from printed music and "The Dreaded Fingerings." The reading will come soon enough, and if you already really like the instrument when you start to learn fingerings, your attitude toward learning the fingerings will be much better. It might even be a labor of love.
Rock on!
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:53 am
by matt g
@Doc has good advice regarding the transition. CC fingerings congealed in my brains forever when I was doing work where the tunes were memorized or by ear.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:12 am
by Alex C
If you have been playing BBb for 30 years, and are in your 40s, you don't need the hassle of learning CC fingerings at this point. Wait for a good BBb tuba and enjoy your playing as is.
However if you are a professional, practicing 2 hours a day or so, you should be able to make the transition in a couple of months.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:29 pm
by KingTuba1241X
Alex C wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:12 am
If you have been playing BBb for 30 years, and are in your 40s, you don't need the hassle of learning CC fingerings at this point. Wait for a good BBb tuba and enjoy your playing as is.
You are probably right and I am kidding myself. But in all honesty and truth, what exactly are the benefits of switching to a CC tuba this late in the game or ever if you started on BBb? Here's my personal list of Cons, I would like to hear your Pros.
Cons to switching:
--Learning a whole new set of fingerings (no i don't already know the fingerings REALLY) it's a two-fold process between having them under my fingers and actually applying them to the old notes on a different horn.
--Community and Amatuer groups tend to play in MOSTLY F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db and sometimes C keys. All except F and C are not conducive to CC tuba fingerings. (IE: Switching to all sharp Orchestra Keys on a BBb horn).
--Tuning your 1st valve to the band now, instead of the open bugle
--Intonation issues (maybe not YOU) but 99.9% of Amateur CC hobbiests are wildly out of tune and can't hear it versus the same skill level players on a B flat horn. As a BBb player, I can't stand playing in sections with CC players for this reason..even pros who play loud and good, they still get pitchy and it's annoying.
Pros to Switching to CC:
--The horns look aestetically much better and tighter
--Someone might think you're a pro, when you're not just by seeing what comes out of your case (ok not a pro to switching really)
Someone please list some honest reasons why functionally at any level it's better to play CC tuba so I can ponder it. Especially at the community band level or amatuer gig circuit level. Honest question I may be missing, so I need to hear positive reinforcement.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:08 pm
by bort2.0
What's interesting though is that if somebody is a C tuba player who says that they want to change to B flat, I don't think there's this sort of discussion that happens. You just say "oh it won't be so bad, just do it."
The keys are what they are. Frankly I think C tuba makes a lot of sense because you're starting with zero flats and zero sharps on the open horn. What sense does it make to start with one flat?
You're going to go through analysis paralysis, and you just need to choose something. I don't think there's any bad choices, but if you've always wanted a 188, this is as good a chance as any. Would you really want to change to C tuba fingerings 10 20 30 years down the road?
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:13 pm
by bloke
If your thumb was blown off in “the war“, you can still play low F in tune with a B flat tuba.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:38 pm
by bort2.0
bloke wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:13 pm
If your thumb was blown off in “the war“, you can still play low F in tune with a B flat tuba.
Ironically, I gave you a thumbs up for that comment.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:44 pm
by bloke
I always use my left thumb for that, to save wear-and-tear on my "musical" thumb...
...and - after all - who cares about the left?
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:38 pm
bloke wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:13 pm
If your thumb was blown off in “the war“, you can still play low F in tune with a B flat tuba.
Ironically, I gave you a thumbs up for that comment.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:46 pm
by KingTuba1241X
bloke wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:13 pm
If your thumb was blown off in “the war“, you can still play low F in tune with a B flat tuba.
Even if my BBb tuba had a 5th valve, I suppose I could.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:02 pm
by bloke
- blown off thumb.jpg (23.11 KiB) Viewed 794 times
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:08 pm
by KingTuba1241X
That reminds me of a seemingly Caucasian Grimace from the McDonald's playland as a kid which was funny but also terrifying.
Or a chicken nugget with a face
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:40 am
by Doc
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:29 pm
You are probably right and I am kidding myself. But in all honesty and truth, what exactly are the benefits of switching to a CC tuba this late in the game or ever if you started on BBb? Here's my personal list of Cons, I would like to hear your Pros.
Cons to switching:
--Learning a whole new set of fingerings (no i don't already know the fingerings REALLY) it's a two-fold process between having them under my fingers and actually applying them to the old notes on a different horn.
--Community and Amatuer groups tend to play in MOSTLY F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db and sometimes C keys. All except F and C are not conducive to CC tuba fingerings. (IE: Switching to all sharp Orchestra Keys on a BBb horn).
--Tuning your 1st valve to the band now, instead of the open bugle
--Intonation issues (maybe not YOU) but 99.9% of Amateur CC hobbiests are wildly out of tune and can't hear it versus the same skill level players on a B flat horn. As a BBb player, I can't stand playing in sections with CC players for this reason..even pros who play loud and good, they still get pitchy and it's annoying.
You can learn CC fingerings. But do you want to?
If you learn CC fingerings, playing in "band keys" is not difficult.
If you know how your Bb tunes to the in-tune C, keep the Bb slide in tune with the C, and adjust the main slide accordingly.
If you don't want to play out of tune on CC, get a CC with easy intonation, and learn to play your CC in tune.
Pros to Switching to CC:
--The horns look aestetically much better and tighter
--Someone might think you're a pro, when you're not just by seeing what comes out of your case (ok not a pro to switching really)
If you are worried about aesthetics, that is entirely personal and subjective. Has nothing to do with being able to physically play the instrument. If you like the look, you like the look. No problem.
I'm not sure a agree with the notion that people assume you're a pro if you have a CC or why their opinions matter. If you like it, and it works for you, play it.
Someone please list some honest reasons why functionally at any level it's better to play CC tuba so I can ponder it. Especially at the community band level or amatuer gig circuit level.
There is no inherent reason why CC is functionally better. Does a shorter instrument respond better and sound clearer? It can, but that difference is marginal when it comes to functionality in community band/amateur settings. The real questions revolve around how it plays for YOU, how it sounds for YOU, and how much YOU really want the tuba. If you've always wanted a 188 (or some other CC), and you like the way they sound and play, there is no shame in getting one and giving it a real chance. But is it necessary in terms of pure function? Nope. Will it make you a better player? Nope, save for any extra time you would spend on the instrument while working out fingerings. Balancing wants vs. needs and desirable vs. practical aren't always easy. Could you simply get an excellent BBb and do well without any extra fuss? Absolutely. Could you get the aesthetically pleasing, nice-sounding CC you've always wanted, do some daily work, and sound great? You bet. You'll need to weigh all things want/need/desirable/practical for yourself and figure out which factors are most important to you.
Question:
Is there a BBb tuba that is equally as desirable to you as this 188?
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:45 am
by KingTuba1241X
Doc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:40 am
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:29 pm
Question:
Is there a BBb tuba that is equally as desirable to you as this 188?
Yes a 187, and I am ready to deal if anyone has one they aren't playing anymore..
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:35 pm
by Doc
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:45 am
Doc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:40 am
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:29 pm
Question:
Is there a BBb tuba that is equally as desirable to you as this 188?
Yes a 187, and I am ready to deal if anyone has one they aren't playing anymore..
Hard to find used and not cheap brand new. Any others?
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:49 pm
by KingTuba1241X
Doc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:35 pm
Hard to find used and not cheap brand new. Any others?
Any rotary similar size to the 188 or 187 with fatter bows/bell throat than a 186, (almost 5/4 or 5/4 size and not with an upper bow that extends and almost touches the bell rim like the 1291). Must be a good blow, not stuffy or too much of an air hog (just the right amount of comfortable resistance). I can deal with a couple of flat partials.
Re: At a Crossroads with Playing....
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:53 pm
by Doc
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:49 pm
Doc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:35 pm
Hard to find used and not cheap brand new. Any others?
Any rotary similar size to the 188 or 187 with fatter bows/bell throat than a 186, (almost 5/4 or 5/4 size and not with an upper bow that extends and almost touches the bell rim like the 1291). Must be a good blow, not stuffy or too much of an air hog (just the right amount of comfortable resistance). I can deal with a couple of flat partials.