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And in the end it is quite individual....I ended up using an old PT64 on everything. Once, at a horn workshop that Sam Pilafian was helping at, he let me play his then Besson (?) CC. I messed around on it (Thank you Sam!) and he said, "that is a good mouthpiece for that tuba."

Just as an aside, I didn't find out how old Sam was until he passed and I read the obituary. He was six months younger than I ... and at the workshop, he thought I was a horn grad student.

I know from bitter experience that spending one’s beginning years on a “player-favoring” mouthpiece allows one to establish and reinforce bad habits that may take decades for an amateur (at an amateurs level of self-training and practice) to overcome.

One might suggest a Bach 18 for a Sousaphone or similar, or a Geib for a grand orchestral/lap sousaphone, or a PT-64 for an F tuba. But for regular 4/4 tuba, I stand by the advice to start with a Helleberg and stick with it until one has progressed enough to be able to make a self-informed choice.

I did not do this, but I wish I had.

The OP isn’t a 7th-grader who has many decades of teachers and progress ahead of him. Someone our age who is starting out needs early progress and good fundamentals from the start—the fastest path to satisfying musical experiences. Starting at the edge of the solution space, where a beginner might notice something distinctive, is less productive than starting near the middle of the solution space, where a beginner cannot yet make any distinctions. That seems to me advice worth giving.

Rick “who started on a Bach ‘cushion rim’ that forgave the use of pressure, and 50 years later still uses too much pressure” Denney

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:54 pm “player-favoring” mouthpiece

What does that mean? Like, specific big name player? Certain player cohort with possibly unusual preferences?

I've seen a fair amount of "can't stand the sharp rim" comments, about the Helleberg. I haven't noticed this myself (though of late my favorite mouthpieces have rounder rims), but maybe there's a player dependent issue here? It's a somewhat unique feature of this particular mouthpiece, even if it isn't as pronounced as it was at some point ( '60s?)

Conn put a very middle of the road rim on their original Helleberg and called it "Conn 2", still to be found used (usually very used.)

donn wrote:

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:54 pm “player-favoring” mouthpiece

What does that mean? Like, specific big name player? Certain player cohort with possibly unusual preferences?

I've seen a fair amount of "can't stand the sharp rim" comments, about the Helleberg. I haven't noticed this myself (though of late my favorite mouthpieces have rounder rims), but maybe there's a player dependent issue here? It's a somewhat unique feature of this particular mouthpiece, even if it isn't as pronounced as it was at some point ( '60s?)

Conn put a very middle of the road rim on their original Helleberg and called it "Conn 2", still to be found used (usually very used.)

I mean the Vincent Bach “cushion rim” which was found on the 24AW I was started on. Very wide, very rounded. Forget flexibility, forget clean articulation, forget being reminded not to use excessive pressure. Guaranteed to raise a poor player’s sound up to lower mediocre. Very popular in England, I understand, which makes me admire British players enormously, getting the results they do.

The narrow rim on a 120S encourages one to avoid pressure, but also makes it much easier to learn flexibility and clean articulation. My mouthpieces don’t all have the flat rim (just as not all Conns are as flat as some are), but I avoid the fat rims.

Rick “wasted half a dozen years on that Bach” Denney

It favors the player - makes it feel easy to the player.

Rant ahead:

I agree with Rick. It has been my experience and observation that cushioned rims might feel good to the player, but they certainly don't help the player in a real way (for all the reasons listed). If you are content to stay on your comfy rim, you are free to do that. Considering the point about the OP needing good results soon, I'll revise my point about finding what works.

The OP should find what works, but maybe narrow the parameters of the search to mouthpieces he can adapt to/improve into. I have the closest thing to a cushion rim I've ever uses was a Miraphone Rose Orchestra, and that was 35 years ago. I have never recommended a cushion rim to a student. My standard recommendation has always been the Conn Helleberg for beginners and developing students (for all the reasons Rick listed). The Helleberg discourages too much pressure, and when students have an instructor, they can be coached in that area. If someone is an accomplished player and chooses a cushioned rim, they likely have the wherewithal to deal with its deficiencies, but that is a different story.

'"But Bill, I NEEEEEED the cushy rim!"

BS. That is not a NEED. It might be a choice, but not a need. If you use too much pressure, learn to play with less pressure. Flexibility and articulation will thank you. If one doesn't want to do something that simple to make improvements, one can't complain.

'"But Bill, I NEEEEEED the cushy rim!"

BS. Unless one has major dental issues (extremely few people), there is no NEED. One might be content with the status quo (these folks don't complain), or one might simply be lazy (they want what a better mp can provide but don't want to do the required work), but very few people physically NEED a cushion rim. One may DESIRE the cushy rim to make everything "feel" good (favoring the player), but it is not truly helping - it's certainly not helping the player improve. If someone is fine with where they are, and everything works good enough for their liking, that's fine. If you are an accomplished player who doesn't feel inhibited by a cushioned rim, no problem. But the truth is that if one is playing with proper pressure/wants to improve/has no dental issues, a sharper, flatter, narrower rim is NOT a problem or hindrance.

Again, folks are free to do what they want, but there is a distinct difference between WANT and NEED. Choose wisely.

Doc wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:44 amI have the closest thing to a cushion rim I've ever uses was a Miraphone Rose Orchestra, and that was 35 years ago. I have never recommended a cushion rim to a student. My standard recommendation has always been the Conn Helleberg for beginners and developing students (for all the reasons Rick listed). The Helleberg discourages too much pressure, and when students have an instructor, they can be coached in that area. If someone is an accomplished player and chooses a cushioned rim, they likely have the wherewithal to deal with its deficiencies, but that is a different story.

I agree with Doc. I tried a Miraphone Rose Orchestra, and ended up sending it out to have the rim re-contoured to be more like a Wick 1/bloke modified Helleberg profile. It ended up not working for my new tuba, so it went on down the road. I have the 24AW that came with my tuba, and that rim is an anathema to me. If anyone wants it, and will send me the $9 for postage, I'll give it away.

Maybe I am exempt because I have played on flattish rims a lot - maybe that formative experience made me into an "accomplished player who doesn't feel inhibited by a cushioned rim"? (That sort of comes as a surprise to me, but OK!)

I don't play with a lot of pressure, and while my teeth are as awful as anyone who ever managed to play a brass instrument, I don't think of it as a comfort issue, in fact it seems weird to me to call this a "cushion" when it certainly isn't anything like any cushion I ever encountered anywhere else. But of late, in recent years when I got better tubas and am practicing more, somewhat to my surprise I find that the mouthpieces that really work for me are pretty rounded rims. Conn 1, Dillon F1B (10-15 years ago, maybe Warburton?), Marcinkiewicz H1, Schilke 67. This rim shape feels a little freer, essentially it's a little wider for the same interior.

And of course it's common to a lot of other mouthpieces that have been standard issue in high school band rooms for generations, right? 24AW isn't the only Bach model with a rounded rim, is it? Conn 2, King 26 ... I like the Helleberg, especially in comfy Lexan, and I've recommended it a lot, but just thinking among the reasons why so many of the alternatives are more rounded, some may even be good reasons.