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I’ll try to remember to weigh my horns soon.

matt g wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:20 pm I’ll try to remember to weigh my horns soon.

If their weights prove to be inadequate, I would recommend that you send them down as soon as possible to have some added.

...

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:53 pm Although, I still do have that fiberglass Martin, which may weigh as much as 10 pounds. :)

You own a Martin fiber tuba? Lucky guy. I’d buy one in a heartbeat if I ever came across one.

I played a gold painted bell front version once and the only thing disappointing about it was that it wasn’t for sale. It was very fun to play because it was very easy to play. My kinda tuba=easy.

general encouragement:
Rather than asking people to talk down to you, it might be better to strive to think up to them.

pjv wrote:

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:53 pm Although, I still do have that fiberglass Martin, which may weigh as much as 10 pounds. :)

You own a Martin fiber tuba? Lucky guy. I’d buy one in a heartbeat if I ever came across one.

I played a gold painted bell front version once and the only thing disappointing about it was that it wasn’t for sale. It was very fun to play because it was very easy to play. My kinda tuba=easy.

It’s easy to play and has a rather nice mellow sound. Intonation is limited by having only three valves. It’s an instrument that cries out for a King 2341 valve body.

Next to an Eastman EBB534:



It fits in the same case.

Mine was previously owned by Leonard Jung and was his old-man’s tuba.

Rick “needs restoration; maybe this year” Denney

With a 4th valve added, that would put extra weight-stress on its connections to the (now: old/brittle) fiberglass, and would undo the primary design purpose of the instrument - which is to be lightweight, no?

It’s a handsome little thing!

Every time someone does this with a top-action designed valveset, the front-action version ends up looking goofy (with examples being Kanstul and Yamaha), but perhaps a scrounged Besson 3-valve COMPENSATING .728” bore valve-set – converted to front-action - would be a nice little (though repair-guy challenging) improvement…(??)
Assuming general intonation characteristics are good, this might step them up to more in tune - though the range would still only be to “low E”.
…All of that nonsense aside, I believe that any parts-changing would lower its value, as I view it as being somewhat of a collectible thing.

All the connections between brass and fiberglass have delaminated and come loose already, and it is held together with hose clamps. One reason I got it cheap. It needs restoration and some epoxy repairs.

Jung had installed the tuning stick, which is necessary but cumbersome.

I’m thinking matte black would look cool.

Rick “work needed” Denney

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:41 pm Ha !
I roped in yet another engineer !!!

The propensity of those in my profession to argue against themselves is well known. It always reminds me of this old joke whenever I do that:

On a beautiful Sunday afternoon in the midst of the French Revolution the revolting citizens led a priest, a drunkard and an engineer to the guillotine. They ask the priest if he wants to face up or down when he meets his fate. The priest says he would like to face up so he will be looking towards heaven when he dies. They raise the blade of the guillotine and release it. It comes speeding down and suddenly stops just inches from his neck. The authorities take this as divine intervention and release the priest.

The drunkard comes to the guillotine next. He also decides to die face up, hoping that he will be as fortunate as the priest. They raise the blade of the guillotine and release it. It comes speeding down and suddenly stops just inches from his neck. Again, the authorities take this as a sign of divine intervention, and they release the drunkard as well.

Next is the engineer. He, too, decides to die facing up. As they slowly raise the blade of the guillotine, the engineer suddenly says, "Hey, I see what your problem is ..."

The semi-uniqueness of it would encourage me to just try to put it back very close to the way it was originally, including the color…
‘ tuning stick… I suppose (??) if the open partials are – sadly – out of tune… Otherwise, it seems to me that - even after bolstering and rebuilding the brass to fiberglass connections, pulling and tugging at something like that all the time would be a bit hard on those connections. As a person who tends to drive older vehicles, I always make a point of handling any parts made of plastic - or other non-metallic materials - rather gingerly.
As you report that the original brackets have failed – which isn’t surprising, it would be a bit serendipitous if it WERE that the joints between the bows had ALSO failed - glue-wise, so that someone could fashion nice strong new ones from the inside. Whether secured with epoxy or not, those King fiberglass sousaphone specially-shaped brass threaded fixtures - which insert from the inside of the fiberglass - are really quite durable.
===============
engineers?
With a relative who had regular meetings with the general over the Corps of Engineers, as well as (per their job) dealing with sensitive personal situations throughout the entire Corps, I have been painted some pretty good pictures.
Regardless of anyone’s profession, the continual insistence at quantifying every aspect of art or instrument design (as even instruments with the utmost control in production can vary remarkably) is going to just lead someone towards talking in circles.
Yes, Marcel Tabuteau invented a “mechanical” system for musical expression, but - to simply follow that system, add nothing else, and never defy the system - would be the sterile equivalent of a paint-by-number picture.
Finally, people who lay in wait to find something about which to pick a bone with me (a couple of folks here), I take that collective stuff as a great compliment, and find it to be terribly amusing.

To the original point, these are the weights of my 6/4, 5/4, 4/4, and 3/4 tubas, none of which were 40 or 50 lbs:
Holton 345 - 28 lbs
Miraphone 191-5 - 24 lbs
King 2341-5 - 23.5 lbs
Yamaha 103 - 14 lbs

Granted, all weights were taken on the family bathroom scale... which I have a long history of disbelieving!

My band buddy says his new model 2341 tips his scale at 20 lbs on the nose. I'm not sure the added 5th valve adds a full 3.5 lbs, but I don't doubt that our scale could be a pound or two off (in which case the Holton could be 26 lbs, just as @bloke stated previously).

Tim

If your scale is like mine, then your tubas range from 18 lbs down to 4 lbs.

I weighed the 345 - that I just finished straightening out - on one of those electronic scales with a flat stainless steel top surface that’s roughly the size of an old-fashioned laundry or baby scale.
I believe it will weigh things up to about 30-something pounds, which should (yes?) weigh things within that range more accurately than something designed to weigh things more between 100 and 300 pounds.
I had to put a piece of plywood on top - so that the bell would be safely supported, but it zeros itself when turned off and back on, so it re-zeroed itself (with the plywood piece on it) before I added the tuba.
This particular 345 is not thin, fwiw. It’s quite solid.
I have encountered old satin finish instruments which featured absurdly thick amounts of silver on them, including both an old Holton 340 and an old King sousaphone bell. It is my belief that those instruments featured a very rough brass surface, were than silver plated over that surface extremely thickly, and then were hit with a sandblaster until they looked nice. This was obviously back when silver was extremely inexpensive, and doing this was actually cheaper than the labor to do it otherwise.
To the best of my knowledge, this has nothing to do with either this particular 345 nor Tim’s, but could explain an additional pound - or part of an additional pound - of weight.
As much as the reputation for these instruments is connected with sloppy factory assembly, it is still going to be sloppy assembly of all the same parts - that are all very close to the same weight - from one instrument to the next.

Reporting back with data:

My Walters Conn/King is 21.5 lbs.

My 2165 is 29.2 lbs.

Adding to this post: I think one would have to look hard for a 6/4 CC heavier than a 2165.

I’m thinking that the three valve *Elkhart E-flat tuba - that I sold not too long ago - was at or under 11 pounds.
Limiting a tuba to three valves – I tend to suspect – does more for “weight reduction” than any other single factor.
__________________
* Yes, of course it’s only E-flat length and small sizes, but still…

Even the Monster Eb tubas, from which my 4/4 has a donor bell and bottom bow, weighed in around 15 or 16 pounds.

I owned one about 20 years ago that I bought off eBay. I built a “flight case” for it out of 1/2” carpentry grade plywood, 1x3 reinforcement strips, brass hinges and hardware, and a bunch of egg crate foam. Some heavy duty wheels as well. With the tuba inside, it weighed 49lbs (back when one could fly with a tuba for no extra charge as long as it was under 50lbs and some dimensional restrictions). If I had to hazard a guess, the case weighed about 35 pounds.

That case was ugly. But it worked!

Anyhow, I’d guess those 3 valve monster Eb tubas were all in the mid teens with regards to weight.

My Wessex XL weighs a little over 28lbs. It's really not too difficult to transport in my Altieri gig bag. However it weighs nearly as much as my Conn 25J(approximately 30lbs w/Kanstul upright bell).

A lot of fiberglass has a release agent embedded in the gel coat, left over from the molding process. If they used the same resin as for the fiberglass to glue stuff (polyester), it won’t be strong. There are much stronger epoxies, but they require a really aggressive solvent cleaning first.

The brace flanges on the Martin were certainly inadequate, even though they were oversized. I will probably make round patches to cover over the top of the flange with a good bit of extension past the edge, and lay it in epoxy resin. While it may only be a little stronger than when new, I tend to offer somewhat less abuse that past owners, perhaps.

My intent is to remove the valve body, strip and rag it, and shoot it with lacquer. The body needs to be sanded, really cleaned, repaired, and then shot with a tough auto-grade paint. I might find a local body shop to shoot the color on it. But it will not be the gold color, which is fake brass and ugly as hell. If that reduces its value, so be it.

Rick “but it’s not first in the list of projects by any means” Denney

The trick to measuring tuba weight on a bathroom scale is to weigh yourself, and then weigh yourself again while holding the tuba. The difference is the tuba weight. Those will keep the bathroom scale in a useful range for accuracy.

Rick “whose strain-gauge bathroom scale is pretty accurate” Denney

I should mail you one of the King curved inside-fitting threaded discs…

Are any of the bows beginning to become unglued from those brass ferrule connectors?
If “yes”, that might give you a chance to use these King things.

Brass colored paint is in the eye of the beholder.
If you don’t like the vintage obvious-metallic-enamel paint look, some of the newer metallic paints nearly look like (real) polished metal.

When people paint their sousaphone bodies black, that’s a big shoulder-shrug for me…but that’s just me.