TubaForum.net

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:20 am

Just above the pedal range on the French tuba, so much straight pipe is added through use of so many valves that the instrument essentially becomes more cylindrical

...this happens with every horn when you finger an octave down.

Name me another member of the tuba family which has a quint valve (6th valve: lowers the instrument by a 5th). That's a lot of pipe, in addition to all the other 'regular' valve loops.

The Saxhorn basse (5 valves).
But the quint valve is not the problem. When you press 4 compensated valves on an euph or a tuba you add the same length of tubing (nearly doubling it!) as when you press 4 and 6 on a French C but with much more twists and curves. Same with 5 or 6 valves in standard layout. But with most others you are not supposed to play constantly in that register. There the history of the instrument shows: the French C is a direct successor of the C Ophicleide, the Saxhorn basse of the Bb Ophi. And like any woodwind the Ophicleide was played starting with lowest note...

When I need a tenor/baritone length instrument to sound like a tuba, I use a Doug Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece with my very-easy-to-play-in/tune – thank goodness - compensating euphonium, which also – thank goodness – offers a very resonant (loud, if needed) low range.

I also own an honest-to-goodness kaiser bariton, which has five rotors and is fully chromatic. Even though the kaiser bariton (American nomenclature: “tenor tuba“) features a much larger body and bell than the euphonium, that instrument is actually much more suited to playing in the middle and high register...such as the solo in the little Mussorgsky orchestration of that well known piano piece... I am actually using a mouthpiece not dissimilar to a 6 1/2 AL with the kaiser bariton... Perhaps, I’m following my own mouthpiece advice - along similar lines to that which I offered in the “pig” thread...??

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:26 am Just for fun, here's a video of Pictures at an Exhibition where the tubaist uses French tuba for *all* the movements, as Ravel intended.

Thanks for posting that video, UncleBeer! Viewing and listening to it really made my morning...

In addition to the French tuba, the peashooter trombones really made for an interesting alternative to what we hear from orchestral brass nowadays.

On the woodwind side, the in-your-face bass clarinet was a refreshing departure from the dark sonic goo we (almost) hear from that instrument in modern times.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:24 am

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:20 am

Just above the pedal range on the French tuba, so much straight pipe is added through use of so many valves that the instrument essentially becomes more cylindrical

...this happens with every horn when you finger an octave down.

Name me another member of the tuba family which has a quint valve (6th valve: lowers the instrument by a 5th). That's a lot of pipe, in addition to all the other 'regular' valve loops.

Cerveny CFB-654 "Harmonia"

4+1(LH)+very large quint valve on right thumb. The quint valve is very open and freeblowing on that horn. I enjoyed the one I owned.

the elephant wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:00 am

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:24 am

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:20 am
...this happens with every horn when you finger an octave down.

Name me another member of the tuba family which has a quint valve (6th valve: lowers the instrument by a 5th). That's a lot of pipe, in addition to all the other 'regular' valve loops.

Cerveny CFB-654 "Harmonia"

4+1(LH)+very large quint valve on right thumb. The quint valve is very open and freeblowing on that horn. I enjoyed the one I owned.

I played a borrowed Harmonia F last summer in Germany. It was very easy to play.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Cerveny-CFB-6 ... /898638625

Keep an eye out for coupons.

matt g wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:53 pm http://www.walmart.com/ip/Cerveny-CFB-6 ... /898638625

Keep an eye out for coupons.

I wonder when they'll have more in stock...

matt g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:48 am

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:18 am

matt g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:57 am @UncleBeer, is the throat in the French C tuba mouthpiece “star” shaped?

Yeah, it is!

I’m curious as to how they machined that.

There is a machine called a broach that holds a tapered cutting tool and moves up and down. Probably required a hole to be drilled first, then the broach moves up and down into the hole, going deeper and deeper, eventually making the hole the required size.

Yep; I recently took a lathe course, and both (well-seasoned machinist) teachers I showed this piece to said it was done with a broach.

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:27 pm

matt g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:48 am

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:18 am

Yeah, it is!

I’m curious as to how they machined that.

There is a machine called a broach that holds a tapered cutting tool and moves up and down. Probably required a hole to be drilled first, then the broach moves up and down into the hole, going deeper and deeper, eventually making the hole the required size.

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:27 pm

matt g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:48 am

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:18 am

Yeah, it is!

I’m curious as to how they machined that.

There is a machine called a broach that holds a tapered cutting tool and moves up and down. Probably required a hole to be drilled first, then the broach moves up and down into the hole, going deeper and deeper, eventually making the hole the required size.

Having spent a year in a machine shop portion of a factory between engineering schools -- my first thought is that the broaching tool just had to be made in a machine shop, and wow what an interesting project. I'd guess now they would be made on a computerized milling machine, one of which was only just starting to be used when I left that job to go back to school with the money I made there. Those things can probably do ANYTHING now. Back then it was pretty simple stuff and machine language to program them.

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:05 am Since then the size of the Euphonium seems to have doubled. With some dramatic effect on sound: yes, of course they are louder. But when played softly they are still "fat" in sound and offer less possibilities of colour.
In comparison to the tuba sizing the Euphs grew up to 6/4

This is a really important point that I don't remember being discussed previously (but I can't claim to have read every post written here). A few years ago, when I was in the market for a euphonium, I wanted to learn which models were largest. I was surprised to find very little information to direct me. I now realize the current models are all about the same size: big--certainly bigger than the school instrument I played in college 50 years ago.

Are they really noticeably bigger than the 1881 Besson that unclebeer used for a graph of the bore profile, on the first page? Or is this a US vs. UK thing? I believe the US baritone is a thing of the past, and euphoniums today follow the fatter UK pattern. As (pardon me) I'm sure everyone knows, but just curious if in fact the English have substantially enlarged their euphonium.

And then of course there are all the German/Czech rotary valve bariphoniums. It would be interesting to put some of them in the line-up, comparing with British euphonium and saxhorn basse.

I finally picked up a Meinl-Weston euphonium.
For the nerds, it's a 551 stencil with a 80:20 "gold brass" bell.

Compared to some of the other makes, the bell (not just the rim or throat...the entire bell) comes much closer to the size of a French tuba bell, and (thus) the sound as well.

The compensating side (4th valve and tubing through the lower parts of the compensating piston) bore is .669" - larger than the bore size of quite a few 3/4 BB-flat tubas. ...so - whereas the bore sizes of a currently-offered French tuba are 14.5mm to 15mm, my Meinl-Weston instrument's bore sizes are 15mm to 17mm.

I typically don't use a mouthpiece as large as a French tuba mouthpiece with it, but I DO have an Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece (which absolutely IS equivalent to the size of a French tuba mouthpiece) which WILL play it (and without distorting tuning).

I've sorta quit using my F tuba for Mendelssohn/Berlioz/etc., and use this Meinl-Weston "euphonium" instrument, though I DID use my F tuba - recently to play the Midsummer Night's Dream suite, because I was a guest/sub, and didn't want to show up (as a sub) and raise eyebrows. Just prior to that, I covered Gounod and Berlioz (two ophicleide works on one concert) with the Meinl-Weston euphonium.

I've seen people bad-mouth the intonation of these. There are some actual WRONG LENGTHS of tubing on them, which I fixed. Further, some of the slides ask for MUCH MORE pull than with other makes. Once I addressed these issues, I was/am able to EASILY play it with NO main slide gadget and with only the following concessions:

- The two lower G's are played with third valve.
- Often, I'll play the upper E-flat with 1-3 to flatten that pitch a bit (same characteristic as Besson).

...That's it. Otherwise, mash buttons, blow, and pay attention.

I'm not anti-French tuba, but I have quite a few (though many here know of my "rule") instruments, and that's one more that I would have to master/maintain (playing-wise) and for very few applications. I'm not getting into a discussion with the bard o' French tuba, the Holy Unca, but - when playing pictures, I'm going to use FatBastard, and - for the graveyard body-wagon solo (no: NOT this huge Meinl-Weston euphonium, but my $100 Yamaha YEP-321 euphonium (a great instrument with only a 14.5mm bore, and a SMALL shank receiver) and some mouthpiece that might not even exceed the approximate size of a 5G...I wouldn't even discount the possibility of shoving a 6-1/2AL into the Yamaha (probably, though, a small-shank Schilke 51 - no letters). Pumping out that solo (to be heard - and distinguished over the low/minimal/growly Ravel orchestration accompaniment), I prefer the Yamaha - with it's smaller bore and NON-bucket mouthpiece. The resonance produced will reach the patrons' ears with less effort/worry/concern on my part. I like "not worrying" (putting oneself in a position to be concerned/worried/nervous when playing a solo is REALLY a bad idea), "not working my butt off", and just - well - playing.

And then of course there are all the German/Czech rotary valve bariphoniums. It would be interesting to put some of them in the line-up, comparing with British euphonium and saxhorn basse.

The German Bariton is roughly the same size like the French Saxhorn basse, the difference is only in fine adjustments of playability. Some years ago I had a 14 years old student, advanced beginner level, who had played for some time on her school Miraphone 4 valve oval, ca 1980/85 made. When she wanted a horn of her own her parents asked me to look for a good used non-chinese one. I found a very nice Besson Prototype 4 piston saxhorn and gave it to her. After two weeks she said: "I just played the Miraphone again... it feels really crappy!" She made some big eyes when I told her the age of her "new" horn, which was made in 1919.
The oval horns were for some decades spared of all possibilities to make them better to play, only valve linkages were updated and valve tolerances got smaller due to better machining. The horns stayed in their 19th century feel up to the late 1980s, when Meinl-Weston and Miraphone started to change their designs. But even now you can get those (mostly cheaper) new-built museum pieces with new valve-train in old-style tubing, not very different from my Wessex ophicleide...

The German Tenorhorn is smaller in bore, like the old American or Britsh baritone, and mostly with only 3 valves.

French Saxhorns have a bit more cylindrical tubing than the British Euphoniums and most of them a longer leadpipe (with the main tuning slide before the valves). The overall size is like a British Euphonium from before ca 1975, when they started to grow. Since then the Euphoniums really blew up in size, I had the chance of comparing my mother's 1997 Yamaha 621 with a 2016 Yamaha, this not only looks like the big brother but also sounded like on steroids. Not that I really liked it...

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:58 am I'm not getting into a discussion with the bard o' French tuba, the Holy Unca, but - when playing pictures, I'm going to use FatBastard

I 'get' that expectations- and sometimes pressure from colleagues and directors play a big role in instrument choice; mainly because they've never heard it any other way. Of course the choice is yours (naturally, with input from them) but at least tip your hat to the fact that Ravel (who knew a thing or two about orchestration) wrote the entire part for an instrument pitched more than an octave higher. ("...and now let's have the cellos play the violin parts!" A comparable mis-orchestration)

Music was very much more regional as were styles, and he wrote orchestral music for what was where he was.

The French tuba is (was) a try-to-do-all.
You play it better than anyone I’ve ever heard play it, but - if it really accomplished what it attempts to accomplish - far more people would be using it and tossing all their other instruments on eBay.
I think most all of us know what it can do and what I can’t, and I suspect you do too.

With my euphonium‘s really large bell and bore sizes – combined with the Elliott mouthpiece, the only really significant difference - other than the valve system – with yours being manually compensating and mine being automatic compensating – is that mine is a foot longer.
I could practice with my Elliott mouthpiece and play the entire “Pictures” on it, but I choose to not.