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GC wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 12:46 pm I only use a 3+1 compensating Eb for quintet, BUT . . . if I had a large BBb, I'd still probably use it. I had no problem with a 20J or 25J in quintet, and the other members preferred the sound over the sound of smaller instruments.

While the choice of size of horn is often huge to tuba players, it's less so to the other players. You might ask their opinion what type sound they prefer, then do what you think is best.

I would PROBABLY do the same (were it that I just just a little bit better E-flat reader...a shortcoming which could be addressed).
I love playing a really good comp. E-flat tuba !
The only issue being that (as most of them feature the John-Fletcher-esque 19" bells) the intensity (and -just a bit - the tuning as well - seems to poop out much above E-flat above the staff, and even E-flat and D - sometimes - present issues. There IS literature in-between "functional/ceremonial" and "gymnastic/look-what-I-can-do/we're-doing-a-recital" brass quintet literature, but I seem to mostly be presented with one or the other, rather than very much "in-between".

I've also posted this before but...a bass trombone or an F cimbasso seems to present pre-19th century music better, as - with quite a bit of 16th-18th centuries music, the lowest voice was (simply) another voice, rather than "THE BASS"...and a large percentage of brass quintet literature IS transcribed early music.

I use my Gronitz PF 125, as over the years, I have had a lot of quintet gigs that are sightread and rehearsed faculty groups I have performed with give trombone music, which often sounds good at octave rather than 8vb. Many of those sight reading gigs include Robert King arrangements where the euphonium part is the one given.

My DMA ‘fesser’ made me use CC in quintet when I did the Bozza Sonatine and the Arnold. I also did an Ewald quintet lecture recital where I used modern instrumentation of trumpets, trombone, horn, CC tuba compared with brass band instrumentation of the original. Experimenting with both horns, I felt I covered many bases with F, and I felt F blended with the ensemble better. On a side note, I feel when I play with orchestral players, CC tuba tends to blend better on most rep.

russiantuba wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:13 pm I use my Gronitz PF 125, as over the years, I have had a lot of quintet gigs that are sightread and rehearsed faculty groups I have performed with give trombone music, which often sounds good at octave rather than 8vb. Many of those sight reading gigs include Robert King arrangements where the euphonium part is the one given.

My DMA ‘fesser’ made me use CC in quintet when I did the Bozza Sonatine and the Arnold. I also did an Ewald quintet lecture recital where I used modern instrumentation of trumpets, trombone, horn, CC tuba compared with brass band instrumentation of the original. Experimenting with both horns, I felt I covered many bases with F, and I felt F blended with the ensemble better. On a side note, I feel when I play with orchestral players, CC tuba tends to blend better on most rep.

Literature aside, working with players who have an orchestral approach vs. a chamber approach might require different instrument choices.

And, yes, you can certainly cover many basses with F tuba.

There are two considerations here that matter (to me):

- What can you play effectively and cover the rep?

- Do the other members of the group have a sound preference? For regular groups, sometimes the other players prefer one kind of sound over another. Sometimes they even prefer bass trombone. If you show up with a 5/4 CC and some trumpet player feels like he has too work to hard to balance that sound, consider something else (or consider moving on to a new group).

That's it. That's the list. Key of instrument will be dictated by those factors.

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 am Yet Sam played C tuba with the Empire Brass and F tuba (actually, a 621 with an even lower serial number than mine) with the Boston Brass. There was something about the sound he wanted with each that led him to different equipment.

Rick "Sam's ideal tuba sound seemed to transcend his equipment; I'm more constrained" Denney

To be more clear: I think Sam's sound on his MW Bell-model CC he used in the Empire Brass is my ideal tuba sound. And for some reason I read Mark's praise for the Canadian Brass (and Chuck D.) as praise for the Empire Brass (and Sam P.), but that must have been some mental metamorphosis on my part.

That said, the comp Eb sound of John Fletcher in the PJBE and the tubists who've played in Septura is extremely pleasing, to me.

Thank you for all the good advice that has been given.
A little about me and the quintet I play in. We are amateurs and are all over 50 years old, and play only for fun. Our repertoire is large and we play everything from the Renaissance to our time. We play a lot of Bach, and our great role model is Canadian brass. All members play in comunity band.
I also play in a sextet which is the only gaming job I get paid for. in the sixties both Eb and Bb tuba have been used before but after I started playing Cc tuba I got feedback that the other members thought it was easiest to intonate after the Cc tuba.
I have previously also worked as a tuba teacher in bands in the local community.
I prefer rotor tubas because that's what I've played for 30+ years. I played Bb tuba for 30 years before I stopped playing. when i began playing again the only tuba i got was to borrow a yamaha cc tuba and i had to learn new fingerings and get acquainted with playing c tuba. it took me 3 months of rehearsal before I felt safe enough to play a concert.
In my search for the perfect tuba I got to try a new Rudolf Meinl 4/4 cc tuba and fell in love with the sound and intonation of that tuba. unfortunately I could not afford to spend that much money on a tuba at the time, but I still regret not buying it. I bought a used RM 5/4 from about 1980 and also loved the sound on it but it required a lot of air. Cc tuba and especially RM tuba is the tuba sound I grew up with because of my tuba teacher playing a RM. But I allso love The sound of f and eb tubas.

If you are mostly playing Robert King Renaissance stuff (???), you might look at the tuba and baritone horn parts.
If they are in octaves, you might consider picking up a baritone horn (if you don't already have one) and playing those parts, rather than the tuba parts.
The baritone/euphonium (though just as difficult to become a virtuoso/soloist type of player as any other instrument) is the "tenor sax of the brass"...ie. If you blow into it, it's going to make a sound and - by the tenth-or-so sound, the sound will probably be pretty good.
Again, with some (many, not all) Renaissance transcriptions, they come off better de-emphasizing the lowest part as being "the bass".

The CB Bach transcriptions... (You already know this...) those tend to go all over the place, and maybe some sort of tuba would work best.

russiantuba wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:13 pm
My DMA ‘fesser’ made me use CC in quintet when I did the Bozza Sonatine and the Arnold. I also did an Ewald quintet lecture recital where I used modern instrumentation of trumpets, trombone, horn, CC tuba compared with brass band instrumentation of the original. Experimenting with both horns, I felt I covered many bases with F, and I felt F blended with the ensemble better. On a side note, I feel when I play with orchestral players, CC tuba tends to blend better on most rep.

Lordy. I could see doing the Arnold on CC. I played it on F, because it's all I had at the time. It worked really well on F. I think it would have been just as good/easy/fine on CC. The Bozza on CC had to have been a challenge. I did it on F because my CC at the time was a Rudy 5/4. But even if I'd had a smaller CC, I wouldn't have tried it.

I’ve played a Willson 3400 Eb tuba in quintets for the past 20+ years. Full disclosure. For most of that time it was my only horn. So I also used it for everything. Large and small ensembles. Has served me well and I would highly recommend it. However, given the amount of time that has passed since you played an F or Eb AND you currently play CC’s, I would go with the Rudy 3/4. There was a part of me in 2000, when I bought the Willson that wishes I would have picked up one of the Rudy 3/4’s they had at WWBW at the time instead. Those are wonderful horns and would have made me equally as happy as the Willson has. They are great for solo, quintet, larger brass groups, chamber works, etc. They sound and play great. Really hard to beat one. Best of luck on your decision.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:49 pm

russiantuba wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:13 pm
My DMA ‘fesser’ made me use CC in quintet when I did the Bozza Sonatine and the Arnold. I also did an Ewald quintet lecture recital where I used modern instrumentation of trumpets, trombone, horn, CC tuba compared with brass band instrumentation of the original. Experimenting with both horns, I felt I covered many bases with F, and I felt F blended with the ensemble better. On a side note, I feel when I play with orchestral players, CC tuba tends to blend better on most rep.

Lordy. I could see doing the Arnold on CC. I played it on F, because it's all I had at the time. It worked really well on F. I think it would have been just as good/easy/fine on CC. The Bozza on CC had to have been a challenge. I did it on F because my CC at the time was a Rudy 5/4. But even if I'd had a smaller CC, I wouldn't have tried it.

Many years ago (like 40 or so!) when I was in undergrad (and it followed my to grad school where I did a lot more quintet playing) my horn was an old Cerveny CC “Wolfstein” model. A predecessor to the Piggy. A string action short and fat tuba. Super easy response and great sound. I was doing a lot of quintet playing at the time and I played all the literature on it. Having owned a Willson Eb for the past 20+ years I find the Eb easier for the Arnold. But, I really liked the CC on the Bozza. It might have been just that horn but I found that it fit the Bozza very well.

MG wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 6:13 pm I’ve played a Willson 3400 Eb tuba in quintets for the past 20+ years. Full disclosure. For most of that time it was my only horn. So I also used it for everything. Large and small ensembles. Has served me well and I would highly recommend it. However, given the amount of time that has passed since you played an F or Eb AND you currently play CC’s, I would go with the Rudy 3/4. There was a part of me in 2000, when I bought the Willson that wishes I would have picked up one of the Rudy 3/4’s they had at WWBW at the time instead. Those are wonderful horns and would have made me equally as happy as the Willson has. They are great for solo, quintet, larger brass groups, chamber works, etc. They sound and play great. Really hard to beat one. Best of luck on your decision.

Added note: In my opinion, the Willson 340O Eb and the Rudy Meinl CC 3/4 are very close / similar. Size wise, response wise, etc. Different sound with the piston vs rotor valves but overall, very similar horns. I’m no expert on the subject so take it for what it is. My opinion.

I might add this to our equation:

Many of us just have the luxury of owning both a bass AND a contrabass tuba. I justified taking my (now sold) 5450 to a quintet gig because I didn't feel like working hard at low register F tuba on that particular piece. Later, I played F tuba with the same group based on the literature.

If it were ME, I have a C and an F. I try to use my F more with this sort of thing because I feel like it's less work to hold and play than any C. YMMV. My C is also way too big for most quintet work, unless that group prefers a lot of tuba. I'm also lazy. F tuba makes a lot of things easier for me. There's a lot to think about!

Also, if it were me I'd probably just own my F tuba if I could only have one horn again because it's easy to play and less work to carry around

Here's the best advice I can give. Ignore what I say about "I use this tuba for this, and the other one for that..."

Pick the one that YOU like to play the most! You can do *pretty much* anything on a good Rudy 3/4. You can also do pretty much anything on that Eb you mentioned. You can play high, fast stuff on a C tuba. You can also play low stuff on the Eb tuba. Either tuba will be a fine choice. The most important aspect is the player behind the horn! That's what counts. If you feel more comfortable on C, go with C! If you think Eb will be the better choice, do that! And have fun!

If I need “nimble, with good bottom,” I use my Eb.

If I need “lots of bottom and no crazy technique” I use my Piggy CC.



If I need to “bring the brown to H-Town,” I use my PT-5P (essentially a PT-6P)

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 am
Yet Sam played C tuba with the Empire Brass and F tuba (actually, a 621 with an even lower serial number than mine) with the Boston Brass. There was something about the sound he wanted with each that led him to different equipment.

Rick "Sam's ideal tuba sound seemed to transcend his equipment; I'm more constrained" Denney

@Rick Denney

I owned that 621F before Sam (100095 was the serial number, it got stolen while on tour if it ever comes up). I was going to sell that tuba back to the original owner after getting a B&S F. I visited ASU to study the Brass Gym with Sam and was looking there for DMA studies. Sam said he would offer $500 more than any top offer on the horn and had a check ready to go on the spot. Man I miss that tuba.

truth:
If the trumpet players aren’t any good, it makes very little difference what size or length of tuba we bring.

russiantuba wrote:

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 am
Yet Sam played C tuba with the Empire Brass and F tuba (actually, a 621 with an even lower serial number than mine) with the Boston Brass. There was something about the sound he wanted with each that led him to different equipment.

Rick "Sam's ideal tuba sound seemed to transcend his equipment; I'm more constrained" Denney

[mention]Rick Denney[/mention]

I owned that 621F before Sam (100095 was the serial number, it got stolen while on tour if it ever comes up). I was going to sell that tuba back to the original owner after getting a B&S F. I visited ASU to study the Brass Gym with Sam and was looking there for DMA studies. Sam said he would offer $500 more than any top offer on the horn and had a check ready to go on the spot. Man I miss that tuba.

His was 100007 (silver), and mine is 100072. Mine was the first-year demonstrator that I bought at TMEA in (fuzzy memory alert) probably February ‘91. Yamaha wouldn’t sell it to me direct, so we made a deal on the exhibit floor with Brook Mays. TMEA is the last show of the show season and therefore a good spot to by demos. I think I was wearing Ray Grim’s badge :)

Lee Hipp had just bought one because he’d just gotten the San Antonio gig and needed one that was available and affordable as these were that first year. I had tried his out in a rehearsal for a tuba octet Christmas gig a couple of months earlier. I had also tried out Mike Sanders’s Symphonie right before he left San Antonio, but I was not yet ready to learn how to play the low range of that instrument.

This photo was ‘92, and I’m at left with the 621. The photo is mislabeled in this recent flashback—this was a promotional photo of all the tuba players at Fiesta Texas that year. The Tubameisters, Färvergtuben (Kenyon Wilson is in there—they were the summer weekday quartet and were all students at Tennessee Tech at the time; we did weekends), and Gary Trumet from the Sauerkrauts. Kenyon and Gary are at upper right, and Ray is top center.



Rick “older, grayer, and skinnier” Denney

Having heard Empire Brass perform live (stage seating, actually) with him using at 621, I was not impressed with the sound, and – though the C tuba that he used previously (based on my experience with that model) is a difficult model to play in tune, I liked his sound - with that instrument - better.
Over the years, there’ve been a lot of posts about a 621 being an easy instrument to play, but offering a pretty vanilla type of resonance. I tend to agree with those old posts.
I don’t recall him ever using an instrument that I would’ve chosen… ‘ funny (and believe it or not), he never asked me.

Yeah, he didn’t ask me, either. But I wasn’t aware he had ever used the 621 with the Empire Brass.

As to vanilla sound, that is often just what is needed. In the Tubameisters, I was usually playing high tuba, which is a relatively unimportant inner part most of the time. No need to stand out, or muddy the sound with too much depth.

In a quintet, the 621 will go trombone-like more easily than my B&S (but the 184 Bb is actually better at it than the B&S).

Chuck still uses his 621 C on occasion. Even though it is a longer bugle, it’s the same sound concept.

But nothing sings at the top of the staff like a B&S. It is still the perfect horn for Gabrielli, as far as I’m concerned. The B&S can soar up into that register—the Yamaha gets there, but with more mundane adjectives.

Rick “whose band shared a stage with the Boston Brass the year before Sam died and thought he sounded great” Denney

LOL…
There’s no need to politic for the model, I think they’re pretty good, and would probably play one if I didn’t have what I have.
“Not stabbing any old funnel cup mouthpiece into them“ tends to lighten them up and offer a considerably more interesting and definable sound, and perhaps that’s why so many of them sound bland - and not due to the instrument’s design itself.

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 am



Rick “older, grayer, and skinnier” Denney

Whoa! Gary and the hair! Ray appears to have not aged much.