TubaForum.net

bloke wrote:

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:18 pm stuff

argumentative

Edit: Nevermind

Rick “doesn’t need this” Denney

I’ve been looking through the Houston Brass Band site and listened to a video by their guest conductor. Earlier in his career and education he played in small brass groups, eventually he decided to look at the score to see what other players were doing. At that point he realised that he needed to play his part with an awareness of how it interacted with what other players had been ‘tasked’ to produce on their parts.

Looking at the score is not a luxury that I have and we cannot fully know how what we play fits in with and supports other parts. However it’s still important to be minded to both play a written part well and be minded of where it might fit in in the completed picture or sound.

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:22 am

bloke wrote:

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:18 pm stuff

argumentative

Edit: Nevermind

Rick “doesn’t need this” Denney

Your contributions are always valued, and my apologies if i contributed to any impression they weren't.

Music is far from the monotonic progression from sightreading ignorance to engraved upon one's soul, and i appreciate both the language analogies, and the seeming counter examples worth considering.

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:22 am

bloke wrote:

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:18 pm stuff

argumentative

Edit: Nevermind

Rick “doesn’t need this” Denney

And just so as it might get stuck in someone else's head who meorized it as a kid...

"... never flitting, still is sitting -- STILL is sitting
on the palid bust of pallas just above my chamber door
and his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming
and the lamplight o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor.
and my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
shall be lifted... nevermind.

When something is ("level four") memorized (yes!) it then passes though the person's mind over-and-over...during which times they can contemplate deeper meanings and interpretations (ie. "level five").

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:23 pm When something is ("level four") memorized (yes!) it then passes though the person's mind over-and-over...during which times they can contemplate deeper meanings and interpretations (ie. "level five").

How do you know you when you have reached level 5?

humBell wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:12 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:23 pm When something is ("level four") memorized (yes!) it then passes though the person's mind over-and-over...during which times they can contemplate deeper meanings and interpretations (ie. "level five").

How do you know you when you have reached level 5?

The person (without even thinking of "what's the next note/measure/phrase") starts thinking about - or has been thinking about and experimenting with - "What's a more interesting (to me and to potential patrons) way to play this?"

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:18 pm I’ve been looking through the Houston Brass Band site and listened to a video by their guest conductor. Earlier in his career and education he played in small brass groups, eventually he decided to look at the score to see what other players were doing. At that point he realised that he needed to play his part with an awareness of how it interacted with what other players had been ‘tasked’ to produce on their parts.

Looking at the score is not a luxury that I have and we cannot fully know how what we play fits in with and supports other parts. However it’s still important to be minded to both play a written part well and be minded of where it might fit in in the completed picture or sound.

My brass band switched to distributing music electronically last year. Now that each of us has easy access to all the parts, I've enjoyed reading the scores to see how things go together. It's usually apparent after some playing, but it's nice to get a head start with the scores. It also means I get to play some of the other parts in my spare time (like to remind me that I'd rather not play baritone or euphonium after all).

jtm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:07 pm

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:18 pm I’ve been looking through the Houston Brass Band site and listened to a video by their guest conductor. Earlier in his career and education he played in small brass groups, eventually he decided to look at the score to see what other players were doing. At that point he realised that he needed to play his part with an awareness of how it interacted with what other players had been ‘tasked’ to produce on their parts.

Looking at the score is not a luxury that I have and we cannot fully know how what we play fits in with and supports other parts. However it’s still important to be minded to both play a written part well and be minded of where it might fit in in the completed picture or sound.

My brass band switched to distributing music electronically last year. Now that each of us has easy access to all the parts, I've enjoyed reading the scores to see how things go together. It's usually apparent after some playing, but it's nice to get a head start with the scores. It also means I get to play some of the other parts in my spare time (like to remind me that I'd rather not play baritone or euphonium after all).

I think that electronic distribution is the way of the future but there are issues to it too and I prefer a paper part. However the chance to read other parts and move part easily has a lot of pluses IMHO. I wish that I had the ability to play a Euphonium really well and think the Principal Euphonium to be second only in importance to the Principal Cornet. Traditionally Brass Bands have allowed players to move parts / instruments, so if you fancy playing something else then maybe have a chat with your Conductor to see what might be possible at a later date.

re: off topic (attempting to make it on topic)

If and when electronic stuff manages to be embedded in peoples brains, electronic printed music embedded in people’s brains will still be only at the reading level of performance.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:23 pm When something is ("level four") memorized (yes!) it then passes though the person's mind over-and-over...during which times they can contemplate deeper meanings and interpretations (ie. "level five").

All those videos I made about playing by ear, getting off paper, etc. could have used some of the language and perspective of this thread to help bring it together. A few people appreciated my ideas, many knew it to be true, but damned few ever really try, and I suspect the same apathy - and even resistance - will continue to exist en masse (often engrained in kollitch students by the CC/F-only academics) regarding this particular installment (like all previous ones) from you about playing by memory/off music, playing by ear, and musicality.

Teach me to improvise over chords.

Nope. Teach yourself to learn some some songs' melodies, chords, and preferred bass lines - and learn them so well, BEYOND memorization - that you can play them in ALL of the keys while someone is giving you a list of stuff to buy at the grocery, or while keeping up with a conversation. Once you KNOW (level 5) a song THAT well, you won't be able to stop your mind from creating (or remembering others') countermelodies that "go with" that song's melody...and - after a few years of working to transfer those countermelodies in your head OVER TO the physical world: your lungs, mouth, and fingers - you will have taught YOURSELF. Almost no one will become a Carl Fontana or a Keith Emerson, but quite a few can become "pretty good".

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:31 am

Teach me to improvise over chords.

Nope. Teach yourself to learn some some songs' melodies, chords, and preferred bass lines - and learn them so well, BEYOND memorization - that you can play them in ALL of the keys while someone is giving you a list of stuff to buy at the grocery, or while keeping up with a conversation. Once you KNOW (level 5) a song THAT well, you won't be able to stop your mind from creating (or remembering others') countermelodies that "go with" that song's melody...and - after a few years of working to transfer those countermelodies in your head OVER TO the physical world: your lungs, mouth, and fingers - you will have taught YOURSELF. Almost no one will become a Carl Fontana, but quite a few can become "pretty good".

You often hear singers say they want to "own" a song before they perform it. They want to be able to communicate beyond memorized lyrics and pitches. And when they "own" a tune, they can then "make it their own." The same is true in instrumental music, which I believe is kind of the point (stated in another way) of all this anyway, yes?

Doc wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:37 am

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:31 am

Teach me to improvise over chords.

Nope. Teach yourself to learn some some songs' melodies, chords, and preferred bass lines - and learn them so well, BEYOND memorization - that you can play them in ALL of the keys while someone is giving you a list of stuff to buy at the grocery, or while keeping up with a conversation. Once you KNOW (level 5) a song THAT well, you won't be able to stop your mind from creating (or remembering others') countermelodies that "go with" that song's melody...and - after a few years of working to transfer those countermelodies in your head OVER TO the physical world: your lungs, mouth, and fingers - you will have taught YOURSELF. Almost no one will become a Carl Fontana, but quite a few can become "pretty good".

You often hear singers say they want to "own" a song before they perform it. They want to be able to communicate beyond memorized lyrics and pitches. And when they "own" a tune, they can then "make it their own." The same is true in instrumental music, which I believe is kind of the point (stated in another way) of all this anyway, yes?

yep...and sorta difficult to express to tuba players - who play donuts and downbeats underneath others who are doing that

Roger Bobo - UNLIKE any (I DID type "any"...a handful: "almost, but not quite") of the tuba soloists who came after - did that, and most tuba players only noticed his "range", and "technique".

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:41 am yep...and sorta difficult to express to tuba players - who play donuts and downbeats underneath others who are doing that

Band and orchestra directors are - and necessarily - serving their programs, and not necessarily serving all their students' individual artistry. There are, of course, only so many minutes in a class and only so many hours in a day. Even so, I have preached about small things that could be done in this line, some of which might inspire young students to take up that torch on their own. But who the hell am I? Why would anyone add anything to their "method" just to accommodate "background brass?" Extolling the virtues of young students playing fun songs by ear is tantamount to pissing in the wind, but the benefits are no less true.

Jerry Jeff Walker had a song that went, "And we're pissin' in the wind, but it's blowing on all our friends..." Yep. Pretty much, Jerry Jeff... pretty much.

Roger Bobo - UNLIKE any (I DID type "any"...a handful: "almost, but not quite") of the tuba soloists who came after - did that, and most tuba players only noticed his "range", and "technique".

If anyone earned the title of "the Heifetz of the tuba," it was Bobo.

There are many paths to ownership.

I never owned the tunes I did memorize, even when I played them "in my head" for days and weeks, which I do with a LOT of music. I have owned some tunes that I still played with the music on the stand. Being able to not worry about forgetting what is notated helped free up mental capacity to deal with what is not notated.

Band kids these days are expected to memorize their concert contest pieces by rote, and the band director drills them on it for whole semesters at a time, playing the same program every time they are in front of an audience to avoid polluting their memory with competing works. I'm sure many of them own those works by the end of the year. But they have missed the opportunity to sample a variety of music, and they have not developed any reading skills to speak of. Band as sport--memorize the playbook by Monday. I don't sense that they are closer to being musicians than back when contests included sight-reading and band directors spent half their rehearsals doing that.

My high school band, like most of the era, marched a different show every week, and we were expected to memorize it. No lyres on the field. I don't think a single one of those tunes ever became important to me, and I'm not sure I could even name a single one of them at this remove of five decades.

So, my own experience suggests that memorization does not belong on that formulaic list, at least for some folks. Yes, by the time an artist/soloist performs a concerto on the circuit, they'll have it memorized. But I'll bet most of them owned it before they put the written music aside.

I also observe teenagers with a year under their belts improvising effectively, while veteran professionals struggle to do so. I somehow doubt that it's practice as much as it is wiring. Everybody is wired a bit differently.

I do agree that having a tune memorized makes it easier to perform in front of an audience, particularly as a soloist or in a small group where antics and stage showiness are part of the entertainment.

Rick "you'll probably think that is argumentative, too" Denney

No. You’re making perfect sense.
A whole bunch of music notes are memorized without moving on forward beyond memorization.

I’ve done that myself - many times.

"The biggest hindrance for musical perfomance is having to handle an instrument"
I don't know who said this but it must have been a wise person.
As a singer I find it easy to get a song to level five knowing, otherwise I would not perform it. When I have to play the same song on an instrument I may get lost in some fingering troubles, even if I know all the chord changes and melody quirks. In this moment my brain has to work on the instrument, so less capacity is left for musical work. You have to own not only the music, but the horn as well. Not all of us are gifted and trained enough to do this.

I have owned some tunes that I still played with the music on the stand. Being able to not worry about forgetting what is notated helped free up mental capacity to deal with what is not notated.

Absolutely right! Whe I played an ophicleide solo in 2017 (Klosé Theme and Variations for celebrating 200 years of the ophicleide) I knew the piece by heart. The first rehearsal with orchestra went well, in the second rehearsal I got lost and switched to the sheets again for safety. It reduced the stress level a lot!

I’m probably looking at the ‘low hanging fruit’ here, the quick and relatively easy stuff that makes a difference. The make it easy for yourself and the free up processing capacity comments resonate with me. The ‘high hanging fruit’ is beyond my reach; I’m going to try not to worry about what I can’t yet change but am glad that my reach has, if slowly, extended over the years.

Being as one with the tool that you’re using is ideal but rarely experienced, if with much much much more to do I continue to try to move my normal experience towards being as one. Many decades ago I rode a motorcycle on a very long (for the UK) journey, at the end of the journey a thought seamlessly converted to an action or manoeuvre - man and machine were as if one. Years later I drove an automatic transmission car, the roads here are very busy and not having to think about clutches and gears freed up a surprisingly large amount of thought capacity and reduced stress. By using an automatic transmission car I became able to drive more safely and for longer between rest stops.

Whilst playing outside I find that the sun gets in my eyes, it can be too sunny or too cold, the seats can be uncomfortable and the wind can blow music off of stands or the stands over; those things all sap attention away from playing well and whilst we try to tackle those issues being well rehearsed such that the music is well know to you does help too. Likewise hours of practise mean that (if the practise worked) notes seen on the paper in front of you translate into sound out of the bell with, relative to earlier years, little mental load - so acquired skill and automatic response leaves capacity for other stuff.

It’s all about what can be done ahead of playing (performing) to make the actual playing as easy and as stress free as possible, well that and (making sure that you have) having mental capacity left to cope with unexpected or otherwise additional loads.

Hm. As far as I remember, Bloke didn´t specify any particular kind of music and chose not to be picky about actual level of performance or grade of difficulty.
So, will knowing traditional folk tunes or old pop songs "by heart" count?
(You know, such as "Eternal Flame" by "The Bangles", which was in the US charts back when I was 16, spending an exchange year at Elkhart Central High school. As was "Don´t Worry, Be Happy" by Bobby McFerrin...) Shout-out to ECHS Blue Blazers class of ´88..!

Cantus Firmus, 2nd or third voice "on-the-fly", maybe even a bass accompaniment "on the fly" as well?

I ´ve been playing all kinds of songs without written music in front of me.
That started when Dad and us kids took out our horns to play stuff like "Kein schöner Land in dieser Zeit" or "Sah ein Knab´ ein Röslein steh´n" while waiting for sausages to get well done on the grill.

Most of the time, if I can whistle a tune, I´ll be able to play it in more than one key.
Or rather: I´ll be able to start many songs beginning at more than one pitch, because when I play "aus´m Hut"
(literally: "out of the hat", but rather "by heart") I never think about pitch names, key signatures, major or minor scales or chord changes.
I´ll just try and let the tune flow.

I can´t remember ever playing memorised music THINKING consecutive pitch names, interval names or rest lengths.
Does anybody really do that when they play memorised music?