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Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:46 am
by Sousaswag
Wade,
I wonder if you could get one of those JP piston valve sets? That might save you some work time and as mentioned above would get you a little homemade 2182 clone?
The King piston set is a great idea but I wonder if small bore+small bugle would make for a big euphonium with a tuba mouthpiece. Unless that’s what you’re looking for!
I don’t claim to know anything about how to mate a valve set with a bugle but something that would paste to the bugle easily would be a lot less work and $$, yes?
I’m excited to follow this project of yours!
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:53 am
by UncleBeer
Build your own fluba (start lifting weights
now!).
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:18 am
by cjk
Flip it around and convert it to top action.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:16 am
by the elephant
I have an old Holton "Monster" Eb piston set, but it is a 3-banger — and it most definitely needs a rebuild.
I want a big tenor tuba-like instrument. I like the range offered by the French C tuba, but not the sound, which is almost exactly the tone of a modern, large euphonium.
Maybe a small King front-facing, four-piston euph set (which I have here at the house) nearer to the receiver where the taper is naturally that size, with three rotors after the MTS? Now THAT could be fun…
It would be a four-valved F tuba (or higher?) with a three-valve machine for when 4th is down, so a sort of fake double tuba.
I have all this stuff here, at hand.
I wonder what the bore size of that King euph piston set is. It's probably too small to be of much use, but that small Holton piston set is not. I need to do some serious horse trading to get my hands on an Eb tuba front-facing, four-piston set that is not in need of a rebuild.
I have two King .689" two-piston sets from some old K-90 contras and they are in excellent condition. I have wanted to make a four-piston set out of them for some time, but the knuckles are in terrible locations. One is a sousaphone 2nd valve, the other was never used for any King tubas, but was designed for the K-90. I think a King three-piston set would work nicely with this oddball piston brazed on as a 4th — I don't like how the 4th on the 2341/1241 tubas is ported and think this might work better for what I want to do.
Lots of ideas, and lots of possible directions to take them. I like that.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:51 am
by LargeTuba
Were you also planning on cutting a Conn 20j to CC?
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:42 pm
by Casca Grossa
the elephant wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:16 am
I have an old Holton "Monster" Eb piston set, but it is a 3-banger — and it most definitely needs a rebuild.
I want a big tenor tuba-like instrument. I like the range offered by the French C tuba, but not the sound, which is almost exactly the tone of a modern, large euphonium.
Maybe a small King front-facing, four-piston euph set (which I have here at the house) nearer to the receiver where the taper is naturally that size, with three rotors after the MTS? Now THAT could be fun…
It would be a four-valved F tuba (or higher?) with a three-valve machine for when 4th is down, so a sort of fake double tuba.
I have all this stuff here, at hand.
I wonder what the bore size of that King euph piston set is. It's probably too small to be of much use, but that small Holton piston set is not. I need to do some serious horse trading to get my hands on an Eb tuba front-facing, four-piston set that is not in need of a rebuild.
I have two King .689" two-piston sets from some old K-90 contras and they are in excellent condition. I have wanted to make a four-piston set out of them for some time, but the knuckles are in terrible locations. One is a sousaphone 2nd valve, the other was never used for any King tubas, but was designed for the K-90. I think a King three-piston set would work nicely with this oddball piston brazed on as a 4th — I don't like how the 4th on the 2341/1241 tubas is ported and think this might work better for what I want to do.
Lots of ideas, and lots of possible directions to take them. I like that.
Have the 5th and 6th valves set up like your Kurath and the 7th could be a quint valve. Why? I have no clue, just sounds cool to me.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:50 pm
by bort2.0
Well, if you like challenges..
Make it into a tenor tuba
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:59 pm
by the elephant
That's what I have been talking about. I think it is the best use of the bugle. But what key…?
<yawn> Probably F…
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:04 pm
by the elephant
LargeTuba wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:51 am
Were you also planning on cutting a Conn 20j to CC?
I have two 24Js I got for almost nothing about ten years ago. One will be restored as much as I can do here (meaning no lacquer). The other will be turned into something else, but I don't know what that will be. I want a Miraphone bell for it, for certain. I have restored the valves more or less, to include dent and action work, but not piston plating — they are those bombproof Conn "crysteel" pistons and look brand new. I will carefully restore the complete machine and leadpipe and sell it as a 24J upgrade kit for those who have a beloved 20J they don't want to part with. The complete bell will go up for sale, too. But this is all a long way off…
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:05 pm
by the elephant
Casca Grossa wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:42 pm… just sounds cool to me.
Me, too.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:34 pm
by LargeTuba
You could also fix both Conns up, sell them both. Acquire some American BBb body for very cheap and use the profits to buy nice valves and a bell.
You could get some Wilson valves for the 182, although those are expensive.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:05 pm
by hrender
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:34 pm
by the elephant
LargeTuba wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:34 pm
You could also fix both Conns up, sell them both. Acquire some American BBb body for very cheap and use the profits to buy nice valves and a bell.
You could get some Wilson valves for the 182, although those are expensive.
Such involved "fix-ups" take months or years. And only one will leave here as a 24J. I explained my plans, and simply dumping them is not a part of that plan.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:36 pm
by the elephant
hrender wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:05 pm
That tuba is probably 50% larger than the one I have here, which is smaller than a YBB-103…
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:56 pm
by matt g
It would be sweet if you could find a 0.689” piston set and a couple of similarly sized rotors and build a 6V 2182-like tuba.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 8:24 pm
by Bob Kolada
the elephant wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:16 am
I have an old Holton "Monster" Eb piston set, but it is a 3-banger — and it most definitely needs a rebuild.
I want a big tenor tuba-like instrument. I like the range offered by the French C tuba, but not the sound, which is almost exactly the tone of a modern, large euphonium.
Maybe a small King front-facing, four-piston euph set (which I have here at the house) nearer to the receiver where the taper is naturally that size, with three rotors after the MTS? Now THAT could be fun…
It would be a four-valved F tuba (or higher?) with a three-valve machine for when 4th is down, so a sort of fake double tuba.
I have all this stuff here, at hand.
I wonder what the bore size of that King euph piston set is. It's probably too small to be of much use, but that small Holton piston set is not. I need to do some serious horse trading to get my hands on an Eb tuba front-facing, four-piston set that is not in need of a rebuild.
I have two King .689" two-piston sets from some old K-90 contras and they are in excellent condition. I have wanted to make a four-piston set out of them for some time, but the knuckles are in terrible locations. One is a sousaphone 2nd valve, the other was never used for any King tubas, but was designed for the K-90. I think a King three-piston set would work nicely with this oddball piston brazed on as a 4th — I don't like how the 4th on the 2341/1241 tubas is ported and think this might work better for what I want to do.
Lots of ideas, and lots of possible directions to take them. I like that.
The King baritone valve sets are .562, I'm unsure if #4 is bigger. I have a 3 valve set in my Eb bassbone thing- bass trombone shank receiver, a bunch of .562 tubing and a G baritone bell. It plays kinda tight, I don't know if that's on the valve set or all the .562 tubing. It plays better with a tuba mp but it's not a usable physical fit. I need to try some of the Josef Klier and Denis Wick small shank mp's.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:42 pm
by the elephant
To bring the bore down that far the tuba would have to be lengthened. It will likely have to be kept at least at .689", and if I dare to cut it to a new key it would have to be Gb or Ab at the most. The taper is actually fairly quick after the valve section. This seems to be one of the few of these with a really in-tune open series and I would be unhappy if I screwed that up by screwing with the taper to shrink it down to something so small.
I think it will stay in F and somewhere between .650" and .700". I think I might really like this horn once I am done with it, so I am going to be very conservative in altering that bugle (if at all).
Thanks for the great information, though, Bob. I am glad to see you posting again. I have missed your personal brand of insanity, sir.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:17 pm
by kingrob76
Random thought, soon to be shot down like a balloon....
WHAT IF you transplanted a shortened valve section from an Eastman 853 Eb tuba (with a .687 bore) to give yourself a compensating F tuba? I have no idea about the math and what would need to come off of each length of circuit, but... it would make for an interesting instrument I suspect.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:53 pm
by the elephant
If it uses the same system as the B&H/Besson horns (Blaikley? I don't know. I hate compensating horns, anyway) there are comp loops on the rear of the pistons that do not open up like slides, so you could not shorten them at all.
The tiny Besson F I used at North Texas seemed to have been made with an Eb comp piston set where some of the loops were shortened, but the one or two that couldn't be cut were really flat when in use; the intonation was rather wild. I loved that little tuba but had to work out some truly weird fingerings to make it play in tune. The open bugle was really pretty good, but that ended the moment you pressed two or more valves.
Re: Melton 182 — Hmm…
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 8:38 am
by bloke
I still think a G (not GG) 6 or 7 valve 3/4 shoulder-mount bass bugle would be a good practical thing to have for a legacy (perhaps 8 - 13 piece) drum corps.
I bet it would go over huge in Yazoo.
Get busy, bubba; It's almost Mardi Gras.
I'm sure you've already applied for a Federal Grant...
