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WC8KCY wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:37 am Perusing eBay tonight, it seems that most peashooter-era trombones lack a lock ring for securing the bell section to the slide section. I plan on using a stand with whatever trombone I end up with. Having once played a Pan American without a lock ring, it seems to me that the slide section would likely fall off such an instrument if placed on a typical stand, which is a bit of a deal-breaker.

Is this the case with instruments without a lock ring, or am I missing something?

The Olds Ambassador option is lookin' better and better...

Old bones lack 2 things: slide lock and bell lock.

Bones without a bell lock are just called "friction fit", where you kind of jam the slide into the bell. And they stay put generally. As long as you don't have any heavy mutes. As long as you assemble it correctly, it won't come apart on a trombone stand.

Bones without a slide lock lack that little finger that holds the slide up for you. If you set up a stand such that the end of the slide is close to the ground, then the end of the slide just rests on the ground. If you pick it up without grabbing the slide brace, yes, it will fall, but the slide won't fall off the horn just being on the stand.

Either way, you can use it with a stand. Just put it together properly and pick it up with a finger around the slide brace.

And I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think the smaller 606 was a 605. That was what my parents rented for me when I was learning.

If you're looking for a bright Dukes of Dixie kind of trombone sound, the 354 is going to give you a fatter sound. Still this may be overthinking things unless you're going to have a bunch of Arthur Pryor historical musicologists in the crowd. Small mouthpiece (and overblowing the hell out of it) will be the key.

The 605 and the ambassador are probably both going to be heavy horns, and heavy is usually a darker sound. Given the choice for brightness, I'd take the 605. But If you could get anything, a 2h would be the real peashooter.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:03 pm not answering the question asked?
- guilty as charged...and here it is:

When comparing ketchup to ketchup, I'd pick the one that smells better when I sniff the open bottle.

When comparing two really old beginner trombones, I'd pick the one that has a better slide.

If your 606 works, I think you might be taking the band director too seriously...
Just bring that one.

I no longer own a trombone, and need one.

Out of the dozens of cheap old models out there, surely some are going to be a better fit for this job than others. That's the point of this thread...

Check this link:
https://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/ ... t=Trombone

The 2h was tiny, at 0.458" mostly from the 1920s.
The 4h was 0.484 and was from the 1950s.

You might get the nastiest sound imaginable on an old valve trombone. That might be the sound you're looking for, if you can find one with valves that work.

What I would do in your situation is forget the 605 or Ambassador and instead go buy the 1961 Holton Galaxy that arpthark is selling right here on this forum. I used to own one of these (.485-.500" dual bore, all nickel) and it was extremely bright. Worked perfectly for Dixieland and second line street gigs. The smaller trombones I've tried (including a Bach 4 - .468"!) weren't as bright as that Galaxy. Use a smaller/shallower mouthpiece and you can sound like tearing paper if you want. It's also not a student horn and is just a good player in general...doesn't feel or sound dull like student horns often do.

WC8KCY wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:50 pm Out of the dozens of cheap old models out there, surely some are going to be a better fit for this job than others. That's the point of this thread...

I still think a couple of the small ones that are easy-to-play out-of-the-box are the beginner Yamaha and recently-made beginner King 606 - with the 606 being more upscale.

I have Yamaha's that need to be slicked out (probably two weeks out, because I have other stuff ahead of [even] a project that easy).
I have a really pretty 606 (too much money)
I have an Olds Super which will be exceptional - once restored (too much money).
I have a professional small-bore Holton with a solid nickel-silver bell (some cool not-common model, and too much money).
I'm thinking that there's an Olds Ambassador, up there. (I wouldn't sell it as cheap as Blake's.)

the point:
I'm not really trying to sell you anything...I'm trying to help, even though I didn't get all the facts straight.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:14 pm I believe they are SMALLER than 606's...

I have a near-perfect-condition recently-made (they even put gold annodizing on the aluminum valance on the case, and the outside slides are nickel-silver - as with the pro models) 606 here, but I would want several hundred bucks for it...and that's too much for some single novelty gig...

Joe, if you're referring to this model...
..this came home with me today.

95% lacquer. Two tiny dents in the MTS. Great slide. $150 out the door. They were glad to see it go.

They also had a Cleveland 605, same price, in average cosmetic shape but also with a great slide, and I played them both. They both absolutely sang, and I'm having a bit of remorse over not just buying both. The 606 played with more edge and got the nod here, but I would've loved the 605 for legit playing.

Thank you, everyone, for helping me think through this. Tomorrow is spa day for the new 'bone, and Sunday I'll be working on getting slide positions back into muscle memory in hopes of being ready to rehearse Monday.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 4:06 pm Unless your 606 was a really old model and different, revisit it, and stick nothing larger than a 6-1/2AL in the receiver. (Based on the parameters dictated, I would suggest an 11C or 12C.)

The most recent 606 made only differ from professional instruments in that they don't have the King trademark curved brace nor wide tuning slide bow. Basically, they are just about the equivalent of a Conn 6H - specifications-wise, and very well made to boot.

8" bell, .500" bore - as is Yamaha.
The Yamaha beginner model mentioned above is good but the recent vintage 606 King trombones are just as good. And constructed of superior materials compared to Yamaha...

... and 40 years ago or so, the King beginner model (after they stopped making the extremely small Cleveland model -which was well-made - and started making beginner instruments so cheaply that they actually had chrome plated brass inner slide tubes - the equivalent of the lowest grade import crap) did drop to a horrible low point, I will readily admit.

I have a 606 that is about 8 years old that I got for a bargain. I use a 6 1/2AL. It plays great.

Casca Grossa wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 1:15 pmI have a 606 that is about 8 years old that I got for a bargain. I use a 6 1/2AL. It plays great.

I tested mine with a Conn Improved Precision 3, which was the first thing that turned up when I was rummaging around my studio for a test mouthpiece to bring to the store. For legit playing, I'm liking it a lot more than the 6 1/2AL.

I've spent a couple of hours truing the shanks, unfouling the backbores, polishing up, and doing what I could with the ratty King 12C that came with my 'bone and an even worse Conn Improved Precision 2 from my junk box. The Conn 2 is narrower, shallower, and brighter than the 12C. I've ordered a Yamaha 48A and hope it's even shallower. We'll see.