Elephant Room Impressions (Add your own in the replies)

[PlayTheTuba]

Due to time I didn't get to spend time a lot of time with any of the tubas I tooted on.

I did spend some time with the 4197 (pt20p) seeing as I wanted something smaller a little smaller than the Kellyberg or the pt48. I ended up buying the RT44 and the RT82 mouthpieces. I got the 82 partially for collection purposes since I don't really have a good bowl shaped mouthpiece and heard a lot of positive comments in various online posts.

Thank you Chris Hite from Buddy Rogers Music for helping me with my mouthpiece quest! I also need to message good gentleman Mr. Tucci too.

Rudy Meinl 5/4 BBb: Rudy's due indeed run bigger than other makers */4 designations. The notes below Bb below the staff felt, airy? Leaky? Unfocused? But the tuba definitely responded much better with the rt-82. So there does seem to be some correlation with bowls and long lead pipe Germanic tubas. First time I've ever played a Rudy Meinl before, so far positive. I'd wonder how good it could be since Diego mentioned it could use some work.

Wessex 6/4 Rotary tuba ‘Kaiser’ BBb: I think it was the 4 valve version? The TB690. I personally still don't like this tuba or tubas generally in this style. Didn't matter which mouthpice I used. Although I think there was a Hirsbrunner kaiser last year? I liked that one I think. But was never a huge fan of German style tubas to begin with. I'll always be open to try traditional German style tubas to see if they'll grow on me. Still not my cup of tea.

Eastman 632 4/4 CC: It was fine but I'd personally rather have the Eastman 534 BBb or a King 2341 instead.

Eastman 534 4/4 BBb: I personally always like to revisit this or the new style King 2341. I'm always glad to toot on them. I also like King 1241 and the old style King 2341's too.

Eastman EBB562 4/4 4 valve BBb: I think I played this and not the 5/4 one. Good tuba. I already like the original B&S version of it too. Solid tuba. Definitely this or the B&S GR51 should be on anyone's list of 4/4 BBb's to try, assuming they haven't already.

Adams Selected Series 5-Valve 4/4 C: I still so far not sure why I don't like it. Maybe like the kind gentleman (can't recall his name) said it is a little too new? Needs more time to break in? Puzzling. I thought 1 and 3 combination responded better than just the 4th valve alone. Oh, it does mention in their catalog book that it comes with all rotary valves too. I guess that is technically another 4/4 rotary CC (and BBb) option that can probably be ordered easily to the USA. But then again front action pistons are more popular so maybe I won't ever get a chance to try one anyone soon, pity. Plus tubas in general are not cheap, so it's not like I can buy the rotary version if it happens to come and I really end up liking it. Same with the BBb versions too. Or Maybe the Adams is one of those horns that you need to spend a few days with to truly appreciate.

Besson 3+1 compensating F: Fun tuba, has the small shank. The 2 piece Kelly X-Small with the small shank and Denis Wick 2 Heritage responded quite nicely. The 2 piece Kellyberg is probably too big for that size of tuba, technically. I'll share photos on the other thread for how deep the shanks sit out. For future reference. I thought the C below the staff was fine. Everything below the low C was stuffy, not surprising since it is a F and a compensator too.

Wilson 3200 6/4? F: Heavy even for an F. Pretty cool and neat. I haven't really played F tubas before so I can't really judge it. Can be a do it all tuba seeing as 4/4 BBb' and CC's are not as in vogue as 5/4 and bigger tubas are. At least from what I've experienced and read.

Kanstul 3/4 5 valve CC: I think this is the 902-5C CC 3/4 Concert Tuba that is still on the Kanstul website. Unless it wasn't a CC tuba... The main tuning slide seemed like it has length added to both of the sides. Neat tuba does take some time getting used to though. Quirky but interesting as a whole too. I think this the first time I've played 3/4 CC before. Again, neat.

Josef Lidl LBB783-4 3/4 BBb: Nice, has some resistance, even more so with the 4 valve combinations. I think it made the most obvious difference tonally with the rt-82 mouthpiece vs the other mouthpieces. Or since the tuba is short and bell being closer to your head makes the tonal difference more obvious.

Miraphone 494 Hagen 3/4 BBb: I can still attest that this tuba is amazing. I made sure to toot on it for a few seconds to make sure if my opinion has changed. My opinion has not changed and the 3/4 is really good. I'd highly recommend anyone to try it out.

Yamaha YBB-623 5 valve BBb: Wow, I thought this was really good. Especially considering the YBB-321 (it's okay) and the YBB-641 (). I really wanted to try the CC version when it wasn't being tested by someone at that moment. But when I came back Yamaha was already gone . Sooooo I guess I'll just have to hope it's brought back next year or NERTEC if it's there to try one.

B&S 4197 (pt20p) 5 valve 4/4 CC: I did spend time with it trying mouthpieces like I mentioned above. I think the tubas that I have or been using so far makes me not as picky or able to notice certain tubas have some stuffiness in the lower registers at times. Even if this and the rotary 4097 (pt20) are considering mediocre 4/4 CC's, as long as the 4097 I ordered plays at least as well as this tuba did to me, I will be happy. And it should be pretty close to coming now. Exciting!

Wessex Front action 3+1 compensating Eb protype: Cool, obviously nowhere near as stuffy as the Besson F, being an Eb and more modern design. I'm curious how the final version will be like.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have LOVED to try the Wilson Merlin's. Wilson also has a new Eb model too! And it's different from the compact model that already exists! Wished I got a chance to try it.

I would've like to try the B&S gr-41 (pt606p) and revisit and try the other Buffett-Crampon tubas again too.

Lots and lots of tubas. So many not enough time to try them all

I wanted to play the Wessex 6/4 Eb Tuba ‘Tubby’ - TE665HP or any large American style Eb because I looove the way they sound. And Marks comments about the 4 Valve stuffiness being resolved makes me really, REALLY want to play it again! I love to try the Wessex BBb 6/4 Compensated Tuba ‘Leviathan’ - TB681HP & TB691P tubas. Now that is a true classic right their folks, well technically they didn't come with compensating valves. Something something patent blah blah manufacturing blah blah, but umph they look soooo, soo nice in the pictures.

I also would always try to find the Eastman EBE851 (15" bell) / Eastman EBE853 (17" bell) tubas since I really like they way they play and sound. I wonder how they compare to a Besson 984 since, to me, the Eastman seemes smaller than the Besson 983.

I think there was a Meinl Weston 2155 at the conference I would've loved to try it since it gets mentioned a lot. Technically I'd like to try the 2157 more due to be having even more positive comments than the 2155. But short on time and remembered when I got home.

Still hoping to try the Yamaha 632 3+1 Neo 4/4 BBb. And seeing as their new BBb 623 was quite nice, I wonder how nice this model is too.

[Kontrabasstuba]

Due to time I didn't get to spend time a lot of time with any of the tubas I tooted on.

I did spend some time with the 4197 (pt20p) seeing as I wanted something smaller a little smaller than the Kellyberg or the pt48. I ended up buying the RT44 and the RT82 mouthpieces. I got the 82 partially for collection purposes since I don't really have a good bowl shaped mouthpiece and heard a lot of positive comments in various online posts.

Thank you Chris Hite from Buddy Rogers Music for helping me with my mouthpiece quest! I also need to message good gentleman Mr. Tucci too.

Rudy Meinl 5/4 BBb: Rudy's due indeed run bigger than other makers */4 designations. The notes below Bb below the staff felt, airy? Leaky? Unfocused? But the tuba definitely responded much better with the rt-82. So there does seem to be some correlation with bowls and long lead pipe Germanic tubas. First time I've ever played a Rudy Meinl before, so far positive. I'd wonder how good it could be since Diego mentioned it could use some work.

Wessex 6/4 Rotary tuba ‘Kaiser’ BBb: I think it was the 4 valve version? The TB690. I personally still don't like this tuba or tubas generally in this style. Didn't matter which mouthpice I used. Although I think there was a Hirsbrunner kaiser last year? I liked that one I think. But was never a huge fan of German style tubas to begin with. I'll always be open to try traditional German style tubas to see if they'll grow on me. Still not my cup of tea.

Eastman 632 4/4 CC: It was fine but I'd personally rather have the Eastman 534 BBb or a King 2341 instead.

Eastman 534 4/4 BBb: I personally always like to revisit this or the new style King 2341. I'm always glad to toot on them. I also like King 1241 and the old style King 2341's too.

Eastman EBB562 4/4 4 valve BBb: I think I played this and not the 5/4 one. Good tuba. I already like the original B&S version of it too. Solid tuba. Definitely this or the B&S GR51 should be on anyone's list of 4/4 BBb's to try, assuming they haven't already.

Adams Selected Series 5-Valve 4/4 C: I still so far not sure why I don't like it. Maybe like the kind gentleman (can't recall his name) said it is a little too new? Needs more time to break in? Puzzling. I thought 1 and 3 combination responded better than just the 4th valve alone. Oh, it does mention in their catalog book that it comes with all rotary valves too. I guess that is technically another 4/4 rotary CC (and BBb) option that can probably be ordered easily to the USA. But then again front action pistons are more popular so maybe I won't ever get a chance to try one anyone soon, pity. Plus tubas in general are not cheap, so it's not like I can buy the rotary version if it happens to come and I really end up liking it. Same with the BBb versions too. Or Maybe the Adams is one of those horns that you need to spend a few days with to truly appreciate.

Besson 3+1 compensating F: Fun tuba, has the small shank. The 2 piece Kelly X-Small with the small shank and Denis Wick 2 Heritage responded quite nicely. The 2 piece Kellyberg is probably too big for that size of tuba, technically. I'll share photos on the other thread for how deep the shanks sit out. For future reference. I thought the C below the staff was fine. Everything below the low C was stuffy, not surprising since it is a F and a compensator too.

Wilson 3200 6/4? F: Heavy even for an F. Pretty cool and neat. I haven't really played F tubas before so I can't really judge it. Can be a do it all tuba seeing as 4/4 BBb' and CC's are not as in vogue as 5/4 and bigger tubas are. At least from what I've experienced and read.

Kanstul 3/4 5 valve CC: I think this is the 902-5C CC 3/4 Concert Tuba that is still on the Kanstul website. Unless it wasn't a CC tuba... The main tuning slide seemed like it has length added to both of the sides. Neat tuba does take some time getting used to though. Quirky but interesting as a whole too. I think this the first time I've played 3/4 CC before. Again, neat.

Josef Lidl LBB783-4 3/4 BBb: Nice, has some resistance, even more so with the 4 valve combinations. I think it made the most obvious difference tonally with the rt-82 mouthpiece vs the other mouthpieces. Or since the tuba is short and bell being closer to your head makes the tonal difference more obvious.

Miraphone 494 Hagen 3/4 BBb: I can still attest that this tuba is amazing. I made sure to toot on it for a few seconds to make sure if my opinion has changed. My opinion has not changed and the 3/4 is really good. I'd highly recommend anyone to try it out.

Yamaha YBB-623 5 valve BBb: Wow, I thought this was really good. Especially considering the YBB-321 (it's okay) and the YBB-641 (). I really wanted to try the CC version when it wasn't being tested by someone at that moment. But when I came back Yamaha was already gone . Sooooo I guess I'll just have to hope it's brought back next year or NERTEC if it's there to try one.

B&S 4197 (pt20p) 5 valve 4/4 CC: I did spend time with it trying mouthpieces like I mentioned above. I think the tubas that I have or been using so far makes me not as picky or able to notice certain tubas have some stuffiness in the lower registers at times. Even if this and the rotary 4097 (pt20) are considering mediocre 4/4 CC's, as long as the 4097 I ordered plays at least as well as this tuba did to me, I will be happy. And it should be pretty close to coming now. Exciting!

Wessex Front action 3+1 compensating Eb protype: Cool, obviously nowhere near as stuffy as the Besson F, being an Eb and more modern design. I'm curious how the final version will be like.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have LOVED to try the Wilson Merlin's. Wilson also has a new Eb model too! And it's different from the compact model that already exists! Wished I got a chance to try it.

I would've like to try the B&S gr-41 (pt606p) and revisit and try the other Buffett-Crampon tubas again too.

Lots and lots of tubas. So many not enough time to try them all

I wanted to play the Wessex 6/4 Eb Tuba ‘Tubby’ - TE665HP or any large American style Eb because I looove the way they sound. And Marks comments about the 4 Valve stuffiness being resolved makes me really, REALLY want to play it again! I love to try the Wessex BBb 6/4 Compensated Tuba ‘Leviathan’ - TB681HP & TB691P tubas. Now that is a true classic right their folks, well technically they didn't come with compensating valves. Something something patent blah blah manufacturing blah blah, but umph they look soooo, soo nice in the pictures.

I also would always try to find the Eastman EBE851 (15" bell) / Eastman EBE853 (17" bell) tubas since I really like they way they play and sound. I wonder how they compare to a Besson 984 since, to me, the Eastman seemes smaller than the Besson 983.

I think there was a Meinl Weston 2155 at the conference I would've loved to try it since it gets mentioned a lot. Technically I'd like to try the 2157 more due to be having even more positive comments than the 2155. But short on time and remembered when I got home.

Still hoping to try the Yamaha 632 3+1 Neo 4/4 BBb. And seeing as their new BBb 623 was quite nice, I wonder how nice this model is too.

Who is selling the Besson 3+1 compensating F?

[UncleBeer]

Who is selling the Besson 3+1 compensating F?

Might be referring to this: https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/br ... tuba-tf458

[Kontrabasstuba]

There was a Besson F there.

Can't remember if it was Dillon or Lee Stofer's shop. I took a walk through video, I was going to post it today. That should tell us

[Eric Murphy]

@Kontrabasstuba The 3+1 compensating F is on consignment at Lee Stofer Music.

[bloke]

(Way) back when - every once in awhile - one of those came up for sale for hundreds of dollars, I would be tempted to consider them, but (being really quirky) only as a fun thing to march down the street with, and the problem with marching down the street with them is that - as they were made at Edgware Road with the thickness of metal that they used, and had a bunch of plumbing in them - they were quite heavy, even though they were tiny.
The 3+1 Blaikley system - likely for reasons of more experience - belongs in the B flat and E flat world. Every time someone tries to export it into F or C, it doesn't seem to want to work very well.

[Rick Denney]

Baltimore Brass had a Wessex Prokofiev (6/4 piston Bb) that was excellent in that category—one of the best Bb Yorkophones I’ve ever played. They also had the Wessex Kaiser, but those have always felt and sounded hollow to me—not my favorite kaiser.

And they had an excellent King 1241 with upright bell.

I also tooted the Alex 163 they had, though it was somewhat modified in ways we couldn’t completely ascertain on quick inspection. Typical Alex—powerful intense sound but intonation that would take some work. The resemblance and shared DNA between it and the old B&S 101 is not just cosmetic.

The Willson Merlin was interesting but now a few days later I have no memory of what it was like. I don’t know what that means :)

The Yamaha Bb prototype had some interesting and innovative features, but the sound sort-of brought the 822 F tuba to mind.

Lee had a Miraphone 1291 that was superb. But the Hagen 496 I played did not move me.

I forgot mouthpieces for Saturday, but Bob Tucci’s line is inexpensive as mouthpieces go and I snagged a fresh RT-48 (aka PT-48) for under a hundred bucks. That will probably go in the glovebox—I can make that mouthpiece work well enough for just about anything. Chris Hite at Buddy Rogers was selling them.

Ray Grim and I had a lot of fun back at the house playing duets on a bunch of different tubas. I concluded that I don’t need any new tubas. :)



Rick “thought all the C tubas sounded sharp—by about two semitones” Denney

[Sousaswag]

All this talk about a new Willson Eb is killing me. What’s it look like?

As mentioned before, the 3400C is an awesome instrument. I’d absolutely love to have one. If this new Eb is like that, they’ve got a winner.

Did anyone snag a photo of it?

[LeMark]

I'll be at tmea on thursday, if they bring it I'll take some pictures. Basically it looks like a 3400 that you put in a dryer
I like the way it played, but I've decided that life is too short to play a tuba that has a lead pipe that hits me in the chest. I'm very tall, but there's really no excuse for that even on a short tuba

[Sousaswag]

I'll be at tmea on thursday, if they bring it I'll take some pictures. Basically it looks like a 3400 that you put in a dryer
I like the way it played, but I've decided that life is too short to play a tuba that has a lead pipe that hits me in the chest. I'm very tall, but there's really no excuse for that even on a short tuba

That is a shame… I’m the same way. That’s the main reason I’ve switched them around so much.

[bloke]

@Rick Denney

I suspect that we don't hear (the 40-something inches tall) kaiser B-flats anything like what they sound like thirty-or-more feet away.

@Yorkboy, (here, but not particularly active recently) is a remarkable-fine and conservatory-trained player, and is a B-flat/E-flat player as well.

When the Miraphone 190 B-flat was here (17-1/3 inch bell, and nearly 45 inches tall) he played on it, sounded REALLY fine, and told me that (from way underneath it) is sounded terrible to him...

...I believe it's the same sort of thing with recording basses (which I tend to play just a bit too loud, simply because I can't hear them very well).

I eschew summer/outdoor/sweat-fest / gratis community band concerts, but agreed to do a couple (maybe two summers back). I was played the work-in-progress Besson 3-valve compensating tuba with it's 24-inch recording bell (the one for which I also put together a 17-inch detachable upright bell, but - well - this was outdoors, no cover, no nuthin')...
...a professional/full-time/tuba-player-friend walked past the band (it was some sort of something-or-other-fest), smiled (yes, we're good friends), waiting for the end of whatever-it-was-that-we-were-playing, and offered the compliment, "That REALLY sounds GREAT, man !!!" ...
...but (other than that nice compliment) I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA whether it was good, bad, or sorta OK...I could hear the pitches, but not the "sound".

I knew (from playing that Besson tuba indoors with it's recording bell - towards a wall) that it's a very fine-sounding tuba, but (particularly when a tuba is not our "main squeeze") we never feel completely confident that it's doing what it usually/always does - if we really can't hear it, yes?

When I played that same model of Chinese kaiser (one time - at a past Arlington shindig), I really couldn't hear it either...but I suspect it sounded good. (??)

the other topic: Holton 345-like Chinese 6/4 B-flats:
They need to ditch some of their inner bows and copy the inner bows of @tubaing's 345 - which I took apart, straightened out, and put back together. I played REMARKABLY WELL IN TUNE before I took it apart, and played REMARKABLY WELL IN TUNE, after I straightened it all out and put it back together correctly. ...the Chinese ones I've played: Intonation characteristics remind me of most of the Holton 345 B-flats (and C's, for that matter).

[kingrob76]

I was very selective this year in the horns I played, more so than usual because I was on a specific quest for knowledge.

About 4 1/2 months ago I bought a Getzen CB-50 to compliment my Eastman 836. The horn needed a bit more work than I realized but after talking to Lee and examining a Getzen that Lee modified I was able to identify and apply all the changes except one (which is pending). I can categorically state that the modification that Lee made make this a MUCH better horn. I'm awaiting a set of MAW valves which will be the last adjustment.

When I bought the Getzen I was also looking for a used Eastman 832 but nothing popped up. So in the interest of due diligence I played several 832's and I have to admit, it's REALLY good. I don't think the sound quality is as rich as the Getzen and as a daily driver I prefer the Getzen, but the 832 is really close to point-and-shoot in terms of evenness of response. My Getzen has a "funny" note (D above the staff), which all Getzens seem to suffer from but there were no funny / odd notes on the 832. I didn't like the 632 as much, it felt more like my Getzen though. Make no mistake - it's a 4/4 horn, no more or no less. I'd need to play an 832 in a more reserved setting to determine if it is my next horn or not.

The PT-6 and Mr. P version of the PT-6 are outstanding big rotary CC tubas and the valves felt great. if I go back to a rotary horn that's my first look.

I still think the Wessex Tubby Eb (still?) has too large of a bore in the 4th valve and I don't care for the way it responds when engaged. The rest of horn is very good, though. I was told the horn there didn't have the changes they made to improve that response.

[PlayTheTuba]

I was very selective this year in the horns I played, more so than usual because I was on a specific quest for knowledge.

About 4 1/2 months ago I bought a Getzen CB-50 to compliment my Eastman 836. The horn needed a bit more work than I realized but after talking to Lee and examining a Getzen that Lee modified I was able to identify and apply all the changes except one (which is pending). I can categorically state that the modification that Lee made make this a MUCH better horn. I'm awaiting a set of MAW valves which will be the last adjustment...

Speaking of MAW valves, I wonder if they would've helped smaller bored horns, ie old American tubas more than say the modern Meinlschmidt larger bore valves, had they existed in the past. And if they indeed would have had a large positive impact, would there be more tubas today with smaller bore sizes?

[Sousaswag]

Martin makes them for 2341 style tubas, I believe. He’ll do them for anything, but I think he modifies your tuba’s valves rather than you purchasing a drop-in set for Buffet tuba valves.

Several years ago I played somebody’s hot-rod Wilk tuba with those valves and it makes a noticeable difference.

A local guy who plays in some brass bands has a Wilk-built 6/4 BBb with (I think) a 23-inch bell. MAW valves, the works. Exceptional.

[arpthark]

I was very selective this year in the horns I played, more so than usual because I was on a specific quest for knowledge.

About 4 1/2 months ago I bought a Getzen CB-50 to compliment my Eastman 836. The horn needed a bit more work than I realized but after talking to Lee and examining a Getzen that Lee modified I was able to identify and apply all the changes except one (which is pending). I can categorically state that the modification that Lee made make this a MUCH better horn. I'm awaiting a set of MAW valves which will be the last adjustment...

Speaking of MAW valves, I wonder if they would've helped smaller bored horns, ie old American tubas more than say the modern Meinlschmidt larger bore valves, had they existed in the past. And if they indeed would have had a large positive impact, would there be more tubas today with smaller bore sizes?

I feel like MAW valves in old small-bore American tubas would mostly help because they would not be leaky and worn like many of those tubas' valves are today!

[bloke]

I feel like MAW valves in old small-bore American tubas would mostly help because they would not be leaky and worn like many of those tubas' valves are today!

Bingo.
When I built my Holton B-flat, I lucked into a bunch of stuff needed to build it for bloke-attractive pricing.
The valves in the old style 2341 valveset that I used were just fine, but I did a repair for someone - which was a barter for a set of those Meinlschmidt pistons which fit King, and guess what? They were too tight and required some work and fitting to get them into the 1990s King casings. So I ended up with basically a like-new valve rebuild without having to pay for it, as well as some tricked out pistons which seem to add some value to an instrument.
... oh and this as well:
The King pistons from the 1990s were in really good condition, and I've ended up selling them one at a time to schools whereby their young scholars have destroyed pistons out of their Kings, so - having charged about a hundred bucks a piece for the leftover King pistons, there's yet a little bit more money that made the whole thing work out really well

[PlayTheTuba]

Martin makes them for 2341 style tubas, I believe. He’ll do them for anything, but I think he modifies your tuba’s valves rather than you purchasing a drop-in set for Buffet tuba valves.

Several years ago I played somebody’s hot-rod Wilk tuba with those valves and it makes a noticeable difference.

A local guy who plays in some brass bands has a Wilk-built 6/4 BBb with (I think) a 23-inch bell. MAW valves, the works. Exceptional.

Well, if Kanstul was still around, I probably would order an extra set of valves and would have Martin turn them into MAW valves for me.

Either the 33-T BBb or a custom made 90-T CC, which does not exist but could have easily been done in my opinion, with modified linkage for the 5th valve. Or save more money to make a top action rotary from those bugles instead. Aw well.

And 23 inch bell, has to be recording/Bell front correct? The old tall Kings with the 22" upright bells are pretty big already.

Revisiting old HN White aka King (https://www.hnwhite.com/lowbrass) tuba catalogs to make sure the recording bell wasn't bigger in diameter to the upright bell. But also noticing that the Symphony BBb existed in top action form too... Assuming the bell from a 1241/old style 2341 fit on the top action version... So many tubas that I would love to have but do not have the room for them either!

Assuming of course the top action version is just as good as its front action version.

I feel like MAW valves in old small-bore American tubas would mostly help because they would not be leaky and worn like many of those tubas' valves are today!

True!

...So I ended up with basically a like-new valve rebuild without having to pay for it, as well as some tricked out pistons which seem to add some value to an instrument...

[UncleBeer]

I'm awaiting a set of MAW valves which will be the last adjustment.

Please post back here when they arrive. I asked Martin if they would just drop into my CB50, and referenced Lee's use of them. He said Lee had bored out the casings slightly, so the MAW's might fit differently in a stock G50/CB50. That was enough for me not to order a set.

[bloke]

I'm awaiting a set of MAW valves which will be the last adjustment.

Please post back here when they arrive. I asked Martin if they would just drop into my CB50, and referenced Lee's use of them. He said Lee had bored out the casings slightly, so the MAW's might fit differently in a stock G50/CB50. That was enough for me not to order a set.

I didn't have to use any tools (eek) on the casings, but did have to spend some time hand-fitting (yet - again - I was tickled that they were too tight, as they de facto gave me "new-fitting" valves on my 1990's 2341 valveset)...

The hazard with hand-fitting those Meinlschmidt side-cutout pistons is that they WILL flex and bend, if handled with the same amount of (well...) roughness (when fitting them) as with regular pistons.

[Eutubabone54]

I loved the Prokofiev. Couldn't afford it though. Want to do an even trade for a Cerveny Piggy? probably not, I guess.