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... that's perfectly fine.
You're satisfied with the pay, the quality of the product you're delivering, and I'm sure that you understand that the cheering isn't for you...
... and your main income comes from something else, as I've been emphasizing.

The cheering is because they enjoyed the performance and selection. Isn't that why we play? For the audience?

I'm always quite aware that the cheering is for the celebrities, their hollering and singing, and maybe a little bit for the guitar playing and set drumming.

When there is a primary income elsewhere, that may be why some people who have part-time playing jobs (or who play in amateur groups) perform...for the applause etc, but others do it for their living, and the point I'm trying to make here is that those who pay them aren't really interested in paying a living wage.

Applause is just as much obligatory as it is sincere, and I'm always the most satisfied when I feel like I've done my best and not just played some notes but done it with some contributory musical content. I don't much thrive off of others' approval. It's the same with repairing people's instruments. Even when I post repair stuff, it's because I deem it to be oddball and possibly of Interest, sort of like when people go to a museum to look at weird things. I'm really not looking for approval. (' not to say that I don't accept compliments graciously, and I'm always willing to chat with the older-than-me guys who wish to tell me about their past playing experiences.) ...Perhaps, I'm not typical...

I do try to live in Realville. It seems to work out a little better than basing my beliefs and judgments on narratives. As society continues to quickly degenerate and crumble - and becomes more and more dystopian, that doesn't mean that we as individuals need to buy into the narratives offered to us politicians, bosses, or our television sets. It's really best to embrace what is, in order to deal with it best, as individuals.

The problem, Joe, is that you're pissed off about it. Not that there isn't anything to be pissed off about, but, go read some Thich Naht Hanh or something. It will be better for your blood pressure. It's the old 12 step thing, to not put your energy into things you can do nothing about. (Oh I bet I get a response to that one but, -- )

I hate performing and always have. Even though I've had the experience of a bar audience clapping on the beat while chanting my name. Long ago. Frankly, it just embarrassed me. I have never understood the desire to play to have people love you, which seems to be the driving force. Maybe I'm a different species or something? The reason I play is because I like playing with people in groups and I like to play by myself as a form of meditation. I did the degree-focused-on-being-in-an-orchestra-thing, did play in a regional orchestra, and screamed and ran when I realized the politics of the situation. Did it again when I got here, subbed for five concerts the first year, got to play the John Williams concert, saw the same thing, quietly made an exit glad I had somewhere else to go.

The other thing I have never understood, and I see it literally everywhere, is that the organization is more important than the people in it. Everywhere! Even the little church I belong to, it's the same way --- it's the organization that they are focused on, even though they think they are focused on the people. And these are very very good people I'm talking about too. Their focus is on the organization, how to grow it, keep it going. Fascinating. I guess I'm just not put together that way. Sometimes I feel like I'm on the wrong planet.

I think tuba colleague summed it up pretty well. The vast majority of your comments on this subject derive from a depressingly hopeless outlook of the world, not based in reality or supporting data. You have your few supporting examples from your close acquaintances, and that’s enough for you. We could provide a list stories similar to Mark’s, full time or part time, but you would still not give it weight. I could point out the number of recent successful negotiations that Unions have navigated to increase pay for musicians, but you would still think Unions are a waste. We could share all of the financially stable orchestras that foster a healthy working relationship between staff and musicians, but it would still be a degrading and dying industry to you.

I’ll echo what tuba colleague said before, if you don’t like the music performance industry and don’t want to put in the effort to make it better, get out of the way for people who care. Stop speaking on behalf an industry you don’t want to see succeed.

I'm not hopeless about "the world".
I'm justifiably hopeless about our nation's population centers (due to the false narrative mindset and gullibility/group-think/ho-hum denial of the level of chaos/violence/theft/ruler-tyranny within, which has completely defined them as - certainly compared to a half century and more ago - uncivilized). The last classical music concert I played was in a new concert hall which is completely locked up tight (until moments before concerts), the parking lot in the rear is gated, and the rear entrance to - basically - the "stage door" is triple-secured. This sort of thing wasn't necessary in the past, but - younger people (who grew up never actually witnessing civilization) simply accept all of that stuff as normal.

"I haven't been robbed/murdered, so my city is perfectly safe, and those who claim otherwise are delusional. There's only a 1-in-1500 chance of me being murdered inside the city limits each year, and only a 1-in-150 chance of me being assaulted/maimed/disabled. That's a perfectly acceptable risk level, right...??" (etc...)

I'm not the only one (reading all this tedious back-and-forth "I know you are, but what am I" blather) who drives way around population centers - on roadtrips, and I'm not the only one who - when there's business within one of them - gets in and (as quickly as possible, once the business is concluded) gets out. Occurring are mass exoduses - certainly from the worst of them (either over to some of the less chaotic/dangerous, or to rural areas - which are quickly becoming less rural, due to this phenomenon). Mass exoduses of population centers are not particularly good for the entertainment industry, particularly when (again) those with the wherewithal to actually get out (the same who have the wherewithal to support live music) are those who are leaving, agreed?

I'm not hear to argue with those in denial (again: who turn their backs on what is real, and who mislabel - via fear of the truth - those who are realists as "pessimists"), so your future responses (in this - a non-tuba thread to which you are typically attracted) will need to be responded to by anyone else who might be willing to waste their time. ie. I've got actual stuff to do, lunchtime is over, and (with apologies) I just can't sit here and troll you anymore today.

I’m going to ignore the unsolicited anti-urbanist commentary, because the sentiment is irrelevant to the topic. The notion of the success of symphonies being dependent upon the success of cities, however, is completely relevant. Your commentary on this is another example of extreme pessimism, suggesting that the only solution is to run for the hills as you have suggested for musicians in general, whereas I have consistently said in this thread that we should instead be encouraging others to find ways to improve things. For both symphonies and cities, that can start with voicing your opinion in polls/community engagement, can extend to being on committees for conductor searches or municipal councils, and can go as far as advocacy through the Union or non-profits.

Again, I push back against the hysterical notion that society is doomed and there is no hope left.

I would also like to say that 99% of the problem is how you frame everything in extremes. For example:

- “Musicians should keep an eye out for executive directors or boards whose only goal is to cut musicians pay” is good advice. Telling musicians that all executive directors and boards are this way is false
- “Musicians should remember that orchestras ultimately need to pay bills too, so there will be some amount of programming centered around selling tickets or soliciting donations instead of artistic fulfillment” is also great advice. Saying that classical music is dead is not.

The truth is rarely, if ever, an extreme. There are bad executive directors, bad boards, bad musicians, bad programming, bad audiences, bad unions, etc but that didn’t mean they all are.

2:15...came in to get my better calipers...

I’m going to ignore the unsolicited anti-urbanist commentary, because the sentiment is irrelevant to the topic. The notion of the success of symphonies being dependent upon the success of cities, however, is completely relevant....

I'm guessing that you chose something other than Rhetoric as an elective, yes?

- "unsolicited"...?? Nothing on this set of forums is "solicited". Everything posted is at the complete option of those who choose to post, so: moot/irrelevant.
- "anti-urbanist" means "against urbanism". The correct term (had you read for content) would be "pro-civilization". "Urbanism" - per your second/contradictory-to-the-first sentence is (as I also pointed out) necessary (again: along with civilization for remunerated live music performances to exist. American cities are dying and inhabitants (again: those with the wherewithal to do so) are leaving them...but - see? - you're causing me to repeat myself...You're trolling me (yes?) to see how often you can get me to type the very same things. Circling back, "urbanism" was still functional, decades ago...

...and many entertainers were actually paid more.
When I was a boy, the symphony orchestra closest to me was a per-service orchestra, and paid annually around $3000. Today (classifying itself as full-time) it pays about $30,000 (which - adjusted for inflation - is just about the same pay), except sales tax (rather than 1%) is now 9-3/4%, property tax assessment percentages are about ten times as high (affecting mortgages/rents very adversely - outside of inflation), fuel tax percentages are far higher, education/medical cost expansion (epically beyond inflation rates) are totally out of control...so that the orchestra has become considerably more "part-time" than it was when I was a boy - while claiming to now be "full-time".

In the same city, it's not unusual for (top drawer) musicians to agree to play club dates (when they exist) for well under $100 (yes, in 2024).
When civilization crumbles, (again: robberies/break-ins/vehicle thefts/assaults/rapes/murders, etc...) the interest in any sort of high art (and even somewhat banal art) evaporates.

As the quality of the concerts - from "freeway philharmonics" to "big five" - move more-and-more towards the banal (and remuneration continues to diminish) the lack of aesthetic reward begins to overrule the lack of "hard" reward. Again, these people are not 15-year-olds, and their artistic institutions are not merely "for the honor/love/whatever" of it... Again, the all-state band years were decades ago, and there actually is a demand (parental chest-swelling) for all-state bands.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 10:36 am I think tuba colleague summed it up pretty well. The vast majority of your comments on this subject derive from a depressingly hopeless outlook of the world, not based in reality or supporting data. You have your few supporting examples from your close acquaintances, and that’s enough for you. We could provide a list stories similar to Mark’s, full time or part time, but you would still not give it weight. I could point out the number of recent successful negotiations that Unions have navigated to increase pay for musicians, but you would still think Unions are a waste. We could share all of the financially stable orchestras that foster a healthy working relationship between staff and musicians, but it would still be a degrading and dying industry to you.
I’ll echo what tuba colleague said before, if you don’t like the music performance industry and don’t want to put in the effort to make it better, get out of the way for people who care. Stop speaking on behalf an industry you don’t want to see succeed.

@Colby Fahrenbacher I can't tell if you are a make american orchestras great again guy, or a bringing back the joy fan.

but I can tell you've been trolled.

a little advice? ..........."step away from the edge"

Today, I won TWO jobs:

I won a job straightening out a beat-up 321 euphonium AND I won another job straightening out a fubar Bach bass trombone slide, bell flair, and gimmicky valve.

The committee (of two) decided that I was so much better than anyone else who performed those works (particularly as no one else did), that they allowed me to be paid amounts of money of my own choosing in exchange for performing those works so very well. I then decided to charge about as much as believed that I could, YET not SO much that I would lose them as patrons. Further, both were performances (no rehearsals), so I felt justified in charging as much as I did.

I'm pretty sure that I'm both the conductor and the soloist. The principal players...?? probably the dent hammer and the buffing machine.

While performing all of these works, I've been thinking about going into picture-painting as a side hustle.
I'm also considering joining the picture-painting union. I'm pretty sure that DeVinci, Van Gogh, Biden, Warhol, Picasso, Michelangelo, Picasso, and Dali were all members. The picture-painting union only charges 10% from each picture (not once sold, but on the union-assessed value - once painted), and protects the interests of the artists. Everyone needs picture-painting, and - if we all stick together - we can prevent painted picture consumers from low-balling us.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 4:59 pm Today, I won TWO jobs:

I won a job straightening out a beat-up 321 euphonium AND I won another job straightening out a fubar Bach bass trombone slide, bell flair, and gimmicky valve.

The committee (of two) decided that I was so much better than anyone else who performed those works (particularly as no one else did), that they allowed me to be paid amounts of money of my own choosing in exchange for performing those works so very well. I then decided to charge about as much as believed that I could, YET not SO much that I would lose them as patrons. Further, both were performances (no rehearsals), so I felt justified in charging as much as I did.

I'm pretty sure that I'm both the conductor and the soloist. The principal players...?? probably the dent hammer and the buffing machine.

While performing all of these works, I've been thinking about going into picture-painting as a side hustle.
I'm also considering joining the picture-painting union. I'm pretty sure that DeVinci, Van Gogh, Biden, Warhol, Picasso, Michelangelo, Picasso, and Dali were all members. The picture-painting union only charges 10% from each picture (not once sold, but on the union-assessed value - once painted), and protects the interests of the artists. Everyone needs picture-painting, and - if we all stick together - we can prevent painted picture consumers from low-balling us.

Congrats?

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 7:22 am Have you sat in on a lot of orchestra board meetings or contract negotiations?

Colby, have you ever sat in on several orchestral board meetings or contract negotiations for a ICSOM orchestra? I am curious on this one. I know you are the librarian for South Bend.

One of the orchestras Bloke plays with has had several top names in big 5 orchestras play in the group where he frequently plays. It seems like you are undermining a lot of his comments. You have asked a couple times about making solutions to the issue. Boards are supposed to have highly effective people on them to figure out these issues, but as you can see, groups like the San Antonio Symphony folded.

Even if a recruited board of directors is sincerely interested in classical music, the lifting has gotten too heavy as (redundantly making points here) American society - certainly over the past 50 or 60 years - has become more and more banal, (again) so as there's just very little interest in any high art (much of which itself has become more and more banal) society wide. Classical musicians tend to live in very small worlds, and to be in denial of this, have never run a business or even managed part of a business, have never raised any serious amounts of money, have only been the recipients of donated monies, and typically don't climb up to the top of the mountain and peer out over all of society to get a good look around. Much smaller (with much smaller funding) types of special interest groups have most all suffered from the same phenomenon of having shrunk down to very small numbers of people who are mostly old, encountering health problems, and passing away.

Pops concerts are a stopgap to bring in 45 through 65-year-olds to concerts who grew up listening to Top 40 and nothing else, but they are aging out as well and we don't get a tremendous amount of deep musical satisfaction playing those, though (sure...) they're fun.

These days people get on symphony boards mostly to have something to put on their resume, as they're looking for a better job or to run for office or to rub elbows with the mucky-mucks in town or so on. Very few of them (typically) really have much interest in classical music at all or know much of anything about it. Those who find out more about it after getting on boards are typically the exceptions. With epically waning interest, they and the executive directors are naturally looking to cut costs. The venues aren't going to give them a break on renting the venues, the executive directors don't want to cut their own salaries down from $X00,000 to $X0,000, so the musicians (again) who they all view as weirdos and then tend to classify as "the help" (due to there being dozens of them) are the natural constant target for cost cutting. It's not only disheartening, but it's also terribly insulting.

Being shown here how other people - who are already involved in this industry - can be so breathtakingly naive, and how I can be attacked for simply telling it like it is... well that stuff (epic naiveté and attacks against truth) happens in all sorts of walks of life every single day, doesn't it?

russiantuba wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2024 6:36 am

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 7:22 am Have you sat in on a lot of orchestra board meetings or contract negotiations?

Colby, have you ever sat in on several orchestral board meetings or contract negotiations for a ICSOM orchestra? I am curious on this one. I know you are the librarian for South Bend.

One of the orchestras Bloke plays with has had several top names in big 5 orchestras play in the group where he frequently plays. It seems like you are undermining a lot of his comments. You have asked a couple times about making solutions to the issue. Boards are supposed to have highly effective people on them to figure out these issues, but as you can see, groups like the San Antonio Symphony folded.

I have not sat on several orchestral board meetings nor contract negotiations. I have also not seen any meta-studies regarding the health of the orchestral music industry, evaluations of board effectiveness, or trends in the industry. Which is exactly why I haven't made any broad statements about the industry nation-wide, as Bloke has done incessantly in this thread. If he could provide any supporting articles and sources to his opinions, I would happily read them.

The folding of the San Antonio Symphony (and rebirth as San Antonio Philharmonic) is an excellent example of LOCAL issues, not national issues. We simply do not have enough data to reasonably assert that the circumstances surrounding the folding of SAS is a nation-wide issue at this time. The fact that SAS has (so far) successfully reformed as the SA Phil suggests the problems SAS was facing were not insurmountable.

Bloke has consistently pushed the idea that orchestras are a dying industry and there is no way to save them. I disagree with the idea, and I disagree with the notion that we should be encouraging other musicians to adopt this pessimistic mindset. When the problem is perceived as a national problem, it is far too easy to it be considered insurmountable. When the problem is perceived as a local problem, then imperfect orchestras run by imperfect staff and musicians can diagnose smaller, local problems and efficiencies and actually make change.

Sometimes they'll fail anyways, but sometimes they won't.

Orchestras have always been non-profit, because it's not possible for them to be profitable. When there were first orchestras, they were funded by super rich individuals or royalty, and payment was meager but offered something to do other than digging trenches or hauling away wagon loads of feces to the cliff. When there's a tremendous entertainment demand - such as filling up a basketball arena to watch a four or five piece super high profile rock band with its 10-piece entourage (touring from city to city) doing that can be profitable, but - were they to stay in the same city and play concerts every week - the audience would dwindle to 500 or 600 on Saturday night and Sunday afternoon, and they would end up having to shut down - unless taxpayers who aren't the least bit interested in going to hear them or forced to subsidize them. I'm not in favor of turning people upside down and shaking all the money out of their pockets, because I believe in as much free enterprise as possible as as little collectivism as possible. For the same reason, I don't like people being turned upside down and having all the money shaken out of their pockets to build stadiums and arenas for private professional ball clubs.
Full-time (really full-time, and not just labeled as such) orchestral musicians don't make as much as rock and roll band musicians at the top of their industry who tour, but they do make upwards of 100,000 bucks or even a little more a year, and - when you multiply that times 60 folks - that's a whole bunch of money for a board of directors to be responsible for generating from donors to prop it up year-in/year-out. With the epic societal deterioration and even "arts" which are still categorized as classical becoming more and more banal, the "city orchestra" phenomenon is either going to evaporate or it's going to change into something that none of us will be particularly interested in doing (and certainly not after paying a quarter to a half million dollars to study how to do it for several years). I see the industry as undergoing both of those. (I chat privately with some - again: actual - full-time tuba players in a few of these orchestras. They don't necessarily vote the way I do, but they shake their heads yes- 100% - at everything you're reading in this post.) I would use the analogy of someone who has pancreatic cancer and really doesn't feel any pain yet, things are changing and getting weird. Right now, they are able to do everything they've always done, go to work, drive a car, eat, but - quite soon - all that's going to come to an end...
... and sure, orchestral musicians can go on strikes when their pay is cut or if boards refuse to negotiate any further than what they've offered, but fiddling and tooting are really not things that people need in order to get through their 24-hour days with enough to eat and a roof over there heads. Ie. There's not any leverage involved in a musician's strike, and - though I'm not really trying to say that they're behaving like children (because they're not) - it has just about as much effect as a 5-year-old holding their breath when they don't get what they want. Tons of musicians have auditioned into orchestras to find themselves on strike as soon as they had planned to begin working... and this: right after they spent a whole bunch of money to relocate.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 8:03 am
The folding of the San Antonio Symphony (and rebirth as San Antonio Philharmonic) is an excellent example of LOCAL issues, not national issues. We simply do not have enough data to reasonably assert that the circumstances surrounding the folding of SAS is a nation-wide issue at this time. The fact that SAS has (so far) successfully reformed as the SA Phil suggests the problems SAS was facing were not insurmountable.

Bloke has consistently pushed the idea that orchestras are a dying industry and there is no way to save them. I disagree with the idea, and I disagree with the notion that we should be encouraging other musicians to adopt this pessimistic mindset. When the problem is perceived as a national problem, it is far too easy to it be considered insurmountable. When the problem is perceived as a local problem, then imperfect orchestras run by imperfect staff and musicians can diagnose smaller, local problems and efficiencies and actually make change.

Sometimes they'll fail anyways, but sometimes they won't.

Colby, how many ICSOM orchestras or even full time ROPAs have had strikes, pay cuts, and cuts to number of services to a season in the last 20 years, the time we have been active in this?

I can tell you Columbus and Louisville are shadows of their former self. I believe Pittsburgh settled on a pay cut. Fort Wayne, Minnesota, and Fort Worth had issues in my recent recollection. Didn’t Baltimore have issues as well?

I’d actually like someone with time to research a list of orchestra strikes or issues with contracts that have cancelled performances of the less than 50 (45?) full time orchestras in the country.

I'm pretty sure that there have been two Pittsburgh pay cuts (while - at the same time - what American dollars buy is less than half of what they bought) since my son-in-law signed on.

again:

I remember a local-to-me orchestra (in the early 60's) paying X dollars (part-time/per-service).

It now pays 10X dollars (same buying power, but referred to as "full-time").

I was playing club engagements for $85 in the early 1980's.
These days, a whole bunch of club engagements don't even pay $85, whereas were the typical club date pay to keep up with inflation, they would need to be paying $300.

If a band demands half that amount ($150, for those of you who need your phones to +-x÷) per musicians, a club will - simply - hire a different band.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 8:03 am
I have also not seen any meta-studies regarding the health of the orchestral music industry, evaluations of board effectiveness, or trends in the industry. Which is exactly why I haven't made any broad statements about the industry nation-wide, as Bloke has done incessantly in this thread. If he could provide any supporting articles and sources to his opinions, I would happily read them.

I’d be pleased to write you one at the cost of only the low six figures if you act fast!

Be sure to include a line or three summarizing the desired conclusion.

russiantuba wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 9:59 am
I’d actually like someone with time to research a list of orchestra strikes or issues with contracts that have cancelled performances of the less than 50 (45?) full time orchestras in the country.

You know where to reach me….