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It has been my impression though that the F/Eb horn players in my band that plays only marches, are among the more solid musicians. I think they have to be, to survive - to stay with the band, which is essentially their whole job, and to stay motivated to show up. I wonder if the better you engage with the music, the less important your particular part is to you? (I mean, assuming a piece where everyone's part is important to the outcome, which we can say some confidence for Sousa.)

Mary Ann wrote:Sort of off topic and sort of not.....in the community groups I play brass in, you can tell which conductors were (are) primarily grade school conductors, and which ones were (are) primarily high school conductors, by the size of their beat. Really. The grade school ones have a beat that uses their entire upper body like they are trying to drag a locomotive along with; the high school ones are simply a lesser version of that, but still v e r y p r o n o u n c e d. The GOOD band that I play in (i.e., it actually makes music) the conductor was a high school teacher but also a pro woodwind player and just retired, at 82, from conducting a union pops orchestra. His beat, if the group starts to get off, gets SMALLER to force people to watch him.

The older I get and the worse my vision becomes, the more I want v e r y p r o n o u n c e d.

Even if small.

I’m reminded of the advice a tympanist gave Ralph Vaughan Williams when the latter was conducting his difficult 4th Symphony. “Dr. Vaughan Williams, you just give us a good four-in-the-bar and we’ll be there with you.”

If the beat starts to get off, clarity is what we need more than size. Even the whole body conductors don’t always communicate their intent.

Important conducting (and teaching) skill: being able to project one’s personality to encompass the entire room.

Rick “whose music glasses are focused on the music stand” Denney

Teaching elementary band, my main task while conducting was to be clear and consistent. My college band director, the great John Paynter, was ALWAYS clear and consistent no matter how rubato, legato, or wacky the music was. It made the performance better and I really appreciated that.

donn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:55 pm It has been my impression though that the F/Eb horn players in my band that plays only marches, are among the more solid musicians. I think they have to be, to survive - to stay with the band, which is essentially their whole job, and to stay motivated to show up. I wonder if the better you engage with the music, the less important your particular part is to you? (I mean, assuming a piece where everyone's part is important to the outcome, which we can say some confidence for Sousa.)

I have to agree. Al the parts are equally important, but those horn parts are what make a march, "March". My students knew I was a march "nut", and all we did in that genre was quickstep/galop/military/circus marches. They were just such useful tools for teaching style, pulse, melody lines, you name it, and when you've taught one Karl King march, the kids have no problem with any of them. Of course, every time I called up the march my horn players would roll their eyes, but they learned to do it right and understood the importance of their part.

One evening years ago, we took a group to hear the Dallas Wind Symphony with Fennell as guest conductor do a 2-hour concert of nothing but marches. It was musical heaven for me, even if his famous "home run swing" on every accent did get a little old after the first hour.

I recall the dawn of popular music being arranged for wind band and published in “march size“ format, along with the dawn of the “Bill Moffit soundpower series”.
Prior to that, most all that bands played - away from the concert stage - were marches. Marches were to wind bands as bluegrass music is to bluegrass bands.
This also predates graded/formula “band pieces”, genre of literature that I consider to have lowered the level of respect for wind bands (at least, in the eyes of some).
As bands spent so much time playing marches, most teenage children in bands understood the style, with the only challenge being mastering all of the notes in any particular march.
In the distant past, band concerts (Sousa, etc.) mostly consisted of marches, and transcribed operatic and symphonic music. Sousa understood that people mostly came to his concerts to hear his marches, but also understood that wall-to-wall marches would become just a bit tedious.
With quite a few exceptions, instrumental concerto accompaniments really were not very commonly transcribed for wind band, but quite a few operatic arias were, and band concerts often included vocal soloists.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:24 am I recall the dawn of popular music being arranged for wind band and published in “march size“ format, along with the dawn of the “Bill Moffit soundpower series”.

Some of that stuff was fun to play.

Prior to that, most all that bands played - away from the concert stage - were marches. Marches were to bands as bluegrass music is too bluegrass bands.

Indeed, sir.

This also predates graded/formula “band pieces”, genre of literature that I consider to have lowered the level of respect for wind bands (at least, in the eyes of some).

Graded/formula band pieces... Dear Lord help us!

As bands spent so much time playing marches, most teenage children in bands understood the style, with the only challenge being mastering all of the notes in any particular march.

^^^This was my experience.^^^

Our band director had a previous career playing tuba in the Air Force, and he was a studied aficionado of Sousa. We just didn't know how blessed we were to have him. And we got to play British marches (which I enjoyed). We played Sousa, King, Fillmore... We did a march at every marching show, at every concert contest, and at every public concert, including "Americans We," "Semper Fidelis," and 'Washington Post." And we always, always, ALWAYS had marches like "The Thunderer," "National Emblem," and "King Size" on tap, all crowd-pleasers. As was the tradition for decades, we ended every spring concert with "Stars and Stripes Forever." I don't know if that tradition continues... or if they continue to line the walls with Sweepstakes Band trophies.

I don't recall ever doing any formula band music. We played pieces like Siegfried's Funeral Music, Night Flight From Madrid, 76 Trombones, Irish Tune, a really nice arrangement of selections from My Fair Lady... stuff that had a melody, was challenging to play, and was entertaining to the audience. My college experience did not involve formula music either. And I'm glad it didn't.

I believe I might even stick my neck out a little bit farther and suggest that wind band music was the “rock“ music of the late 1800s through the early 1900s.
It was loud, percussion was prominent, bass was prominent, and the beat was relentless.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:59 am I believe I might even stick my neck out a little bit farther and suggest that wind band music was the “rock“ music of the late 1800s through the early 1900s.
It was loud, percussion was prominent, bass was prominent, and the beat was relentless.

You didn't make it a poll, but it gets my vote.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:59 am I believe I might even stick my neck out a little bit farther and suggest that wind band music was the “rock“ music of the late 1800s through the early 1900s.
It was loud, percussion was prominent, bass was prominent, and the beat was relentless.

You have my vote as well!

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:24 am Marches were to wind bands as bluegrass music is to bluegrass bands.
This also predates graded/formula “band pieces”, genre of literature that I consider to have lowered the level of respect for wind bands (at least, in the eyes of some).

Man, do I agree with this (in addition to the rest of the post). I know of publishing companies that actually do use a formula for pieces they will publish (won't name names, but one is well known for having published lots of quickstep marches in the past). I know of some solid composers who have submitted pieces that were actually very good music but didn't fit the formula and were rejected in favor of some very non-musical pieces that did follow said formula. I guess these companies feel that's where the money is.

I don’t claim to know how to teach band or run a band rehearsal, though I can play most of the wind instruments at a certain level. (People who send us repairs better damn well hopeful that we can play their instruments, and a damn sight better than “barely”.) The fact that I have a band directing degree doesn’t mean squat. I was a band director for only one semester…
… but I do have some pretty strong opinions about wind bands, along with where they’re going as opposed to where they’ve been.

OK… I’ve said this more than once, but I’m not sure who I was paying attention. Here’s another blokeopinion about wind bands:

With all of the instruments now considerably larger than 50/70/90 years ago, the overall sonic affect is very “mezzo”. Wind bands lack shimmer in their sound, were already (historically) VERY alto-voice heavy, and now all of the instruments are so large that some of the soprano instruments (if not many of them) feature an alto/covered resonance as well. The large bore trombones, the large bore trumpets, the seemingly larger-by-the-day euphoniums instead of baritones, the migration to very covered-sounding clarinet mouthpieces, the very loud yet also covered-sounding flute head joints, and even larger saxophones - as well as way too many of them - all contribute to this mezzo sonic cluster-_ _ _ _.

Symphony orchestras feature four horns, an English horn, a handful of violas, with everything else being either soprano or baritone/bass.

Western music (the way western people are accustomed to hearing it) is soprano and bass with a little bit of chording, and not the other way around.

Perhaps your problem is that you are unprepared for what it takes to be a music teacher which is what is expected of you to be a good music educator and not a Warner Erhard salesman.

I believe I like the previous post (Werner, but whatever), but - as there's no actual "you/your" here (straw man), I believe I'll just like it, without "liking" it.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:47 pm Well, at least one of them is going ---pfft ---pfft ---pffft

@dp,
These horn players need instruction on the proper use of pffft. I don't think Sousa marches are the proper application.

- If a college music ed major (who plays tuba or baritone) doesn't either buy a C tuba or a compensating euphonium, they can't possibly become a good school band director.

- A three-hours-a-week three-month course to learn how to play the flute, clarinets, saxophones, oboe, and bassoon is far more than adequate to master those instruments well enough to properly teach others how to play them.

- Education courses teach college-aged emerging adults all they need to know about how to handle incorrigible children, gang members, mentally-ill parents, and cover-their-own-@$$es school principals.

- Any tuba player who purchases a top-action tuba - and any baritone player who purchases a front-action baritone, is not a serious musician.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:09 am If a college music ed major (who plays tuba or baritone) doesn't either buy a C tuba or a compensating euphonium, they can't possibly become a good school band director.

Additionally, any tuba player who purchases a top-action tuba - and any baritone player who purchases a front-action baritone, is not a serious musician.

Don't stop him when he's preachin' good!