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Everything Tubeast discussed applies.

Tubeast wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:31 am Hm. As far as I remember, Bloke didn´t specify any p
That started when Dad and us kids took out our horns to play stuff like "Kein schöner Land in dieser Zeit" or "Sah ein Knab´ ein Röslein steh´n" while waiting for sausages to get well done on the grill.

Wonderful tunes! Unfortunately, I don’t know them well enough to play them from memory. Maybe I should fix that? Auf Deutsche, I’m stuck with any number of Blasmusik tunes and Backe Backe Kuchen.

Yes Doc, they are true treasures.
And there was a time when knowing these and a lot of other old works (such as Aesopian fables, Homer´s Ilias and other greek classics, legends and fairy tales) were considered wide spread and basic knowledge.
These were being revisited and re-explored several times at different stages of life, offering different opportunity for development in intellect, character and cultural identity each time.

Responding to the idea of memorisation being a cultural technique (other cultural techniques would be dancing, reading, driving a car, free and rhetorically elegant speech, cooking and many more) that many observe to be declining over generations:

For one thing, declining cultural techniques tend to be replaced by other, maybe new ones that older generations (such as mine) tend not to recognise as such.
Further on, I believe young (well under 10 years of age) children´s own personal desires, as well as the urge to be part of a group are THE most effective motivators for them to pursue those cultural techniques.
Young kids will pick up this kind of stuff out of their own if it is presented to them as a matter of course / basic need / a vehicle to experience unity with the family.

If they are no part of your own life, don´t expect your young children to find classical poems worth exploring, let alone memorising them.
Same goes with folk music or healthy food habits. Simply exposing them to this kind of stuff at school will not do the trick.

In that case, Your only hope is that they´ll discover a culture of their own during puberty in an act of rebellion, trying to exactly NOT do what they perceive as their parents´expectations.

(The pivotal quote: "I wrote it down so i didn't have to remember!", but really, i just like the movie)

After thinking for a bit, might i propose that a relationship between memorizing music and a high level of performance goes the other way too: if you've made a particular decision about interpreting a phrase, that can help ya remember the phrase somewhat?

I would also say that unless you play entirely by yourself*, you effectively have to read others' playing, be that as rudimentary as following a conductor, so reading is never out of the picture as a vital skill.

Meh, i'm sure i've thought a few other useful thoughts on the subject in my recent sessions of pondering the hard questions of life, but alas, i guess i didn't write them down at the time. I'll have to regenerate them from first principles, i guess.

*even then, it doesn't hurt to read the crowd?

There are also times i know a song by heart and have no clue how to play it: just frustratingly strong sense of what it should sound like.



(note to self: figure these notes out for future playing)

This orchestra ~KNOWS~ Shostakovich 9th Symphony.

(some people: "I've just never been able to memorize - in order to subsequently 'know' - music".
' funny...100% of these people can. I suppose they are what's know as a "statistical anomaly"...??)

Listen to how REMARKABLY musically they're playing:

https://www.facebook.com/theproms/video ... 2701771265

non fb subscribers: never mind

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:41 am This orchestra ~KNOWS~ Shostakovich 9th Symphony.

(some people: "I've just never been able to memorize - in order to subsequently 'know' - music".
' funny...100% of these people can. I suppose they are what's know as a "statistical anomaly"...??)

Listen to how REMARKABLY musically they're playing:

https://www.facebook.com/theproms/video ... 2701771265

non fb subscribers: never mind

As a non fb subscriber, for some reason it let me listen to it, so thanks for sharing.

Are these BBC Prom performers representative of your average joe musician?

Might it be possible to play well without memorizing it?

And might it be a reasonable decision to play play 100 pieces well rather than memorizing 1 piece, if that is the respective time commitment for either? Especially if the former improves one's capacity for sight reading, while the latter doesn't so much?

Addendum...I bet i could have argued more effectively if i'd memorized the statistics involved. And not arguing wholeheartedly against memorizing. Just that if effort or attention is a finite resource, The best eployment of it should have the right balance.

Of course, it's possible to play it "well" without memorizing, but (again), it's obvious that these musicians have gone beyond memorization, and KNOW the work...

There are plenty of "fine" recordings of this work, but not many that (even with the low-fi audio of youtube) sparkle as does this one.

We've all heard memorized poems recited, and we've all hear those who KNOW the poem and TELL the poem...beyond reciting the words with some feigned/coached/taught level of expression in their voice.

bloke "being redundant: level 5"

Those are some slick video cuts to the right instrument playing the exposed parts of the piece. I presume the video editor also memorized the piece, knew where to point the camera or (obviously) cameras and when to switch the feed?

humBell wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:18 am Those are some slick video cuts to the right instrument playing the exposed parts of the piece. I presume the video editor also memorized the piece, knew where to point the camera or (obviously) cameras and when to switch the feed?

Usually, music videographers (at least) play guitar (etc.), can count measures, and make notes as to where to change cameras.

Typically, ALL camera angles are filmed for entire works, and editing is done prior to release.

Rarely, there are live music broadcasts. Those camera-switchers need to be as good as were those back in the 1950's and early 1960's.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:30 am

humBell wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:18 am Those are some slick video cuts to the right instrument playing the exposed parts of the piece. I presume the video editor also memorized the piece, knew where to point the camera or (obviously) cameras and when to switch the feed?

Usually, music videographers (at least) play guitar (etc.), can count measures, and make notes as to where to change cameras.

But they aren't expected to memorize those notes when they film? Would their work be substantially improved if they did?

Typically, ALL camera angles are filmed for entire works, and editing is done prior to release.

Rarely, there are live music broadcasts. Those camera-switchers need to be as good as were those back in the 1950's and early 1960's.

Yeah, editing does tend to remove this from a live music example. But i postulate those live switchers are not off book either, and have everything in front of them that would prove useful to keeping in the moment, including a screen telling them exactly what their work looks like, and likely headsets, allowing a director to cue them.

I also am curious about the rehearsal process of playing from memory. Do they also memorize all the measure numbers, so they are off book early in the process? Or is going off book the penultimate step before performing?

You would think that "Those guys that fire those cannons in 1812 aren't really following the music"...but yes, they are.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:23 pm You would think that "Those guys that fire those cannons in 1812 aren't really following the music"...but yes, they are.

But is their performance improved by memorizing their part?

humBell wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:12 am

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:23 pm You would think that "Those guys that fire those cannons in 1812 aren't really following the music"...but yes, they are.

But is their performance improved by memorizing their part?

You draw me somewhat off-topic, and then try to overwrite the original topic into my somewhat off-topic response to your somewhat off-topic comment.

...but no: I don't believe that performance levels are particularly enhanced by memorization (other than - likely - fewer errors from knowing the notes really well). Rather (per the point that I attempted to make in the original post) "level 4 - memorization" functions as a bridge to "level 5" (ie. "owning" a piece of music - to the best level that any particular performer is capable) performance, because a performer's mind is no longer preoccupied with "the notes" and/nor (at the lower/reading levels) "what's next?"

At this point (the "5" thing...) the performer's mind (whether performing or practicing performing) can dwell on such topics as "OK...The way that I have been playing this phrase seems to work pretty well, but I wonder if it would be more fascinating to patrons if I played it this other way...hmm...Let's see..."

cannons: There's a few posts about shotgun barrels, in another forum and thread...