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I owned a small Cerveny F tuba for a year or so... I loved the experience, and it was an absolute blast to play it. The sound was clear, the focus was sharp, and it was very easy to navigate the full range (both directions). Such an easy horn to play. Made me wonder, "why aren't CC tubas this easy to play?" (obviously longer tubing, etc...)

But joking aside, it was a serious wake-up call to think, could I just use an F tuba for everything?

That didn't last long, though. My playing was all in large ensembles (very large) with underpowered tuba sections. One concert, I was the only tuba player on my Cerveny F, for a band of 80-100 players. I was expecting a section of 5 or 6, but nobody told me they couldn't make it. That was one of the worst shows I've ever had, anywhere.

I'd love to get another (bigger) F tuba again some day. I still have zero need, and it's a tough sell... But maybe I can get one again someday!

Luckily, I have had (pre-art/entertainment-killing shutdown) opportunities to play in an orchestra or two with some of my "betters"...
...trombonists whose names/reputations are known.
When I show up with my go-to contrabass tuba (a fine instrument, which I'm extremely lucky to own), everything (well, duh) is fine...but when I play through a piece and realize/decide that the contrabass is just a bit "too much tuba" (yeah...and that would include Brahms II, as well as a very long list of other works) - and bring the F tuba to the next rehearsal - (typically) their ears perk up, and their mouths (after the first big rest, after the first big passage) upturn into big smiles. I really believe that (a large percentage of) trombonists love clarity, and that they eschew fog. I'm sure they (again: a certain percentage of orchestral trombonists) "accept" lap sousaphones (as the tuba player's instrument choice is not the trombonists' decision). but possibly in the very same way that we all "accept" music directors' tastes/musical decisions, eh? (They also obviously love the F cimbasso...as it sounds like a trombone, the one that I own is capable of being easily played in tune, and I don't try to "kill the world" with it...unless [very rarely] called for.)

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:42 am I owned a small Cerveny F tuba for a year or so... I loved the experience, and it was an absolute blast to play it. The sound was clear, the focus was sharp, and it was very easy to navigate the full range (both directions). Such an easy horn to play. Made me wonder, "why aren't CC tubas this easy to play?" (obviously longer tubing, etc...)

But joking aside, it was a serious wake-up call to think, could I just use an F tuba for everything?

That didn't last long, though. My playing was all in large ensembles (very large) with underpowered tuba sections. One concert, I was the only tuba player on my Cerveny F, for a band of 80-100 players. I was expecting a section of 5 or 6, but nobody told me they couldn't make it. That was one of the worst shows I've ever had, anywhere.

I'd love to get another (bigger) F tuba again some day. I still have zero need, and it's a tough sell... But maybe I can get one again someday!

This isn't F tuba specific, but related

I sold my first cerveny 68 and got the piggy (with a broader sound) in 1995 when I auditioned for my Symphony, and in 2003 the conductor suggested that something even larger would be nice, so I got the 601. I still use that, but last December I played the 68 that I bought the month before because we were doing something with a couple solos that I thought the 68 would be more appropriate for, and I got a ton of compliments on the tone.

After 25 years, I'm thinking of using that most of the time and saving the 601 for the biggest works that need a ton of horsepower

Options are nice

LeMark wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:24 am This isn't F tuba specific, but related

I sold my first cerveny 68 and got the piggy (with a broader sound) in 1995 when I auditioned for my Symphony, and in 2003 the conductor suggested that something even larger would be nice, so I got the 601. I still use that, but last December I played the 68 that I bought the month before because we were doing something with a couple solos that I thought the 68 would be more appropriate for, and I got a ton of compliments on the tone.

After 25 years, I'm thinking of using that most of the time and saving the 601 for the biggest works that need a ton of horsepower

Options are nice

I would have ABSOLUTELY kept (and Mrs. bloke was shocked, when I told her that it would be disappearing) the 186 that "Doc" now owns...except for the fact that my 5/4 (not 6/4) contrabass is so flexible, so easily capable of being played "confidentially", and without the (I HATE this word !!! ) "core" of the sound evaporating. (Again...I'm VERY lucky to own that particular 5/4-size instrument.)

I'm doing a series of brass quintet concerts (outdoors...all over a city that had to forgo its annual season-kickoff big outdoor concert) over the next few weeks. Our trombonist (a Van Haney/Indiana graduate) chose about 45 minutes of music (hr. concerts, with a bit of jawing involved) that sound good/interesting but can be read without extensive rehearsal. Those types of quintet pieces tend to relegate (and I don't necessarily mean "simple") the tuba to being "the bass" (rather than jumping around being a "second trombone" or a "second horn", occasionally)...so - having opened up the mailed envelope of charts, and having glanced through them - I'm probably going to use the contrabass tuba (something I typically do NOT do when playing in quintets - unless playing a commencement gig) exclusively for those little shows.

Stryk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:32 pm First, let me say that I think the F tuba is the spawn of Satan. I have an ok F (Dalyan Chinese one). I am starting to get the hang of it, but more than ever, I am wondering why anyone would need one. Help me out here. I can't play as high or as low as on my full size C tubas, nor does ANYTHING sound better. In fact, I can play higher with a better tone on my 184 C. Other than "My professor told me I needed one", what is the reasoning?

The problem here is not F tuba, it is the brand of F tuba you have.

It was a bad copy of a not-great European F which had a lousy low register. I played a couple of Dalyan BBb's, they weren't horrible but I wouldn't recommend the ones I played to anyone.

Alex C wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:54 am
The problem here is not F tuba, it is the brand of F tuba you have.

Part of the problem IS F tuba. It is an entirely different set of fingerings which confuses my old, medicated brain. The brand? Possibly. I have seen that several people love them and some hate them - likely very inconsistent. I'm pretty sure one person I talked to owned it 10 years or so ago and he had a lot of work done on it, but said it was still a dog. I had the only person I know in the area that is fluent in F play it, and he said it was OK - not great, but far from horrible. I likely need a second opinion or need to find what is considered a good F and try it myself. Anyhow, looks like I'm stuck with it! At least it looks nice.

My (rotary) kaiser bariton...
(and ask Mrs. bloke...She'll confirm) I sounded "just adquate" playing it - when I first owned it, and was trying to learn how to "give it what it needs".
Lately, I'm becoming fairly pleased with what I'm doing with it...
...It has been MANY months, Terry... (though that time span could have been GREATLY shortened, had I spent more - and-more-regular - time with the kaiser bariton...OR if you had spent more - and more-regular - time with your F tuba...eh? )

compensating euphonium and many contrabass tubas - more forgiving, regarding how players approach them
kaiser bariton and F tuba - more particular, regarding how players approach them

Finally, SOME (certainly not all...and probably not most) of the instruments that are more particular about how they are approached offer the most rewards, when those mysteries and skills are unlocked and mastered.

Stryk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:07 am

Alex C wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:54 am
The problem here is not F tuba, it is the brand of F tuba you have.

Part of the problem IS F tuba. It is an entirely different set of fingerings which confuses my old, medicated brain. The brand? Possibly. I have seen that several people love them and some hate them - likely very inconsistent. I'm pretty sure one person I talked to owned it 10 years or so ago and he had a lot of work done on it, but said it was still a dog. I had the only person I know in the area that is fluent in F play it, and he said it was OK - not great, but far from horrible. I likely need a second opinion or need to find what is considered a good F and try it myself. Anyhow, looks like I'm stuck with it! At least it looks nice.

Personally, i get a real kick out of BBb being a privilege tone. No it doesn't quite sound like it is supposed to, but i really can't think of a better way to force myself to work on privilege tone qualitly and enjoy it...

Tone quality is pleasant (i think i can chalk that up to strange new england finds for the win: a beat up old stowasser) and i have not played it with others, so i got no real sense of either blend or relative volume (or how good pitch actually is, 'cause i got the bad habit of menatlly rounding up or down to call it in tune) I also got a small shank mouthpiece specifically chosen for the being able to push low notes through the nominal stuffiness of a compensated Eb, so it kinda feels like i can drive the notes where i want them.

But yeah, i can totally dig the F tuba, even if no one in their right mind would want to hear me play.

humBell wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:24 pm Personally, i get a real kick out of BBb being a privilege tone. No it doesn't quite sound like it is supposed to, but i really can't think of a better way to force myself to work on privilege tone qualitly and enjoy it...

Tone quality is pleasant (i think i can chalk that up to strange new england finds for the win: a beat up old stowasser) and i have not played it with others, so i got no real sense of either blend or relative volume (or how good pitch actually is, 'cause i got the bad habit of menatlly rounding up or down to call it in tune) I also got a small shank mouthpiece specifically chosen for the being able to push low notes through the nominal stuffiness of a compensated Eb, so it kinda feels like i can drive the notes where i want them.

But yeah, i can totally dig the F tuba, even if no one in their right mind would want to hear me play.

bumping an OLD thread...

Brahms II (yet again...ie. in the "top 40 of the violin cover-bands") next week in Memphis.

F tuba?

yup.

When someone's at the other end of the section playing an alto trombone, that could (??) serve those (who might be trying to decide) with somewhat of a "context clue" as to whether haul in a "bass" or a "contrabass" instrument.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:02 am bumping an OLD thread...

Brahms II (yet again...ie. in the "top 40 of the violin cover-bands") next week in Memphis.

F tuba?

yup.

When someone's at the other end of the section playing an alto trombone, that could (??) serve those (who might be trying to decide) with somewhat of a "context clue" as to whether haul in a "bass" or a "contrabass" instrument.

This isn't a job for the ol' bell-front Eb?

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:02 am bumping an OLD thread...

Brahms II (yet again...ie. in the "top 40 of the violin cover-bands") next week in Memphis.

F tuba?

yup.

When someone's at the other end of the section playing an alto trombone, that could (??) serve those (who might be trying to decide) with somewhat of a "context clue" as to whether haul in a "bass" or a "contrabass" instrument.

I would use my 3J. If I had a comp EEb, or a big British F I would use those. But I don't. So 3J FTW!

sure… Other than optics

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:45 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:02 am bumping an OLD thread...

Brahms II (yet again...ie. in the "top 40 of the violin cover-bands") next week in Memphis.

F tuba?

yup.

When someone's at the other end of the section playing an alto trombone, that could (??) serve those (who might be trying to decide) with somewhat of a "context clue" as to whether haul in a "bass" or a "contrabass" instrument.

This isn't a job for the ol' bell-front Eb?

DandyZ629 wrote:
I would use my 3J. If I had a comp EEb, or a big British F I would use those. But I don't. So 3J FTW!

“Big” and “British” don’t seem to belong in the same description of F tubas. I think my Yamaha 621 F has a lot in common with British designs, front-action valves notwithstanding. The 14” bell on that instrument is bigger than the typical Barlow F. That instrument is great but it definitely imposes a ceiling above which it will not go.

There are certainly contrabass-sized F tubas, but I think many of them seem more like pretend C tubas than real F tubas. When it comes to a uniquely bass-tuba voice but with enough projection to balance a large ensemble, the orchestral rotary F’s really do it for me.

But they all sound oinky in the low register if blown into like a contrabass. F has to learned as its own instrument.

Rick “needs more F time these days” Denney

Stryk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:32 pm First, let me say that I think the F tuba is the spawn of Satan. I have an ok F (Dalyan Chinese one). I am starting to get the hang of it, but more than ever, I am wondering why anyone would need one. Help me out here. I can't play as high or as low as on my full size C tubas, nor does ANYTHING sound better. In fact, I can play higher with a better tone on my 184 C. Other than "My professor told me I needed one", what is the reasoning?

It's funny I've said this about CC tuba my whole life. However, regarding the F..there's only a handful of players who can make that really sing.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:02 am bumping an OLD thread...

Brahms II (yet again...ie. in the "top 40 of the violin cover-bands") next week in Memphis.

F tuba?

yup.

When someone's at the other end of the section playing an alto trombone, that could (??) serve those (who might be trying to decide) with somewhat of a "context clue" as to whether haul in a "bass" or a "contrabass" instrument.

Brahms 2, for me, CC tuba. The caveat is the alto trombone - that would push me towards my 188, but I've done it on bigger gear just fine (the blend with the bones and basses was enjoyable).

I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve played that symphony.
Since every time was after 1982, I’ve always use the F tuba.
During the Gronitz craze (and I had found a new condition used one for about $6500) I brought mine to the first rehearsal. It was “OK” on the outer movements, but the delicate dovetails - in and out of phrase segments, in the slow movement - made me feel as though I was tiptoeing with snow shoes, due to the thick color of the contrabass tuba - weaving in and out of the texture.
I don’t retreat to the “historical instruments” argument, because most all orchestral instruments are more resonant than they were when pieces such as this were written. Again, though, it’s the very thick color - combined with the uber-resonance of a very efficient contrabass tuba - that are typically the characteristics that encourage me to dial it down one instrument size/length.
…Bruckner VII… John Williams bombastos…Broadway oompahs…the bigger the better.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:52 am I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve played that symphony.
Since every time was after 1982, I’ve always use the F tuba.
During the Gronitz craze (and I had found a new condition used one for about $6500) I brought mine to the first rehearsal. It was “OK” on the outer movements, but the delicate dovetails - in and out of phrase segments, in the slow movement - made me feel as though I was tiptoeing with snow shoes, due to the thick color of the contrabass tuba - weaving in and out of the texture.
I don’t retreat to the “historical instruments” argument, because most all orchestral instruments are more resonant than they were when pieces such as this were written. Again, though, it’s the very thick color - combined with the uber-resonance of a very efficient contrabass tuba - that are typically the characteristics that encourage me to dial it down one instrument size/length.
…Bruckner VII… John Williams bombastos…Broadway oompahs…the bigger the better.

Makes sense to me.

Would you consider Bruckner 4 a half & half tune?

Doc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:12 am

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:52 am I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve played that symphony.
Since every time was after 1982, I’ve always use the F tuba.
During the Gronitz craze (and I had found a new condition used one for about $6500) I brought mine to the first rehearsal. It was “OK” on the outer movements, but the delicate dovetails - in and out of phrase segments, in the slow movement - made me feel as though I was tiptoeing with snow shoes, due to the thick color of the contrabass tuba - weaving in and out of the texture.
I don’t retreat to the “historical instruments” argument, because most all orchestral instruments are more resonant than they were when pieces such as this were written. Again, though, it’s the very thick color - combined with the uber-resonance of a very efficient contrabass tuba - that are typically the characteristics that encourage me to dial it down one instrument size/length.
…Bruckner VII… John Williams bombastos…Broadway oompahs…the bigger the better.

Makes sense to me.

Would you consider Bruckner 4 a half & half tune?

To me, the entire Symphony (B-4) screams "F tuba".

Certainly, if I wanted to have two seconds of extra fun (and play the "low C" - that is edited out of some editions - at letter M, Andante mvt.), I'd absolutely use F, because that "low C" (particularly if piannissimo) - is much easier to control with a bunch of cylindrical tubing (12' of tapered bugle + 4' cylindrical tubing) than with a large/open bugle (16' of tapered bugle).

also...(again) This is one of those "first trombone is an alto trombone part" symphonies.

...and - with my particular instrument - I would play this F with 5-6-1-2-3-4 I don't know if Matt Good is signed on here (??).
He and I have spent some time chatting privately about all the pieces that he and I will choose to play on F tuba, that others (often: Americans) will/do not.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:24 am

Doc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:12 am

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:52 am I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve played that symphony.
Since every time was after 1982, I’ve always use the F tuba.
During the Gronitz craze (and I had found a new condition used one for about $6500) I brought mine to the first rehearsal. It was “OK” on the outer movements, but the delicate dovetails - in and out of phrase segments, in the slow movement - made me feel as though I was tiptoeing with snow shoes, due to the thick color of the contrabass tuba - weaving in and out of the texture.
I don’t retreat to the “historical instruments” argument, because most all orchestral instruments are more resonant than they were when pieces such as this were written. Again, though, it’s the very thick color - combined with the uber-resonance of a very efficient contrabass tuba - that are typically the characteristics that encourage me to dial it down one instrument size/length.
…Bruckner VII… John Williams bombastos…Broadway oompahs…the bigger the better.

Makes sense to me.

Would you consider Bruckner 4 a half & half tune?

To me, the entire Symphony (B-4) screams "F tuba".

Certainly, if I wanted to have two seconds of extra fun (and play the "low C" - that is edited out of some editions - at letter M, Andante mvt.), I'd absolutely use F, because that "low C" (particularly if piannissimo) - is much easier to control with a bunch of cylindrical tubing (12' of tapered bugle + 4' cylindrical tubing) than with a large/open bugle (16' of tapered bugle).

...and - with my particular instrument - I would play this F with 5-6-1-2-3-4
Bruckner 4 tuba excerpt.png

I don't have the opportunity to play it these days, but F tuba would be my choice. I have a recording of it by the Berlin Radio Symphony with George Schwark playing MY F tuba - sounds just right, and the playing is great.

I don't know if Matt Good is signed on here (??).
He and I have spent some time chatting privately about all the pieces that he and I will choose to play on F tuba, that others (often: Americans) will/do not.

Understood. Meistersinger is the first one that comes to mind on which I would use F tuba that, while following German tradition (and adding proper color for the actual role being performed), would likely cause consternation and guffaw among U.S. tubists. Methinks it a no-brainer for F tuba on Lohengrin, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Berlioz... but what do I know?