cutting Fat Bastard down to size (OK. I'm probably -??- done posting to this thread.)

[bloke]

Last night's concert started at 7:00 instead of 7:30 or 8:00, was relatively short, and I got home by about 10:00 something instead of 11:00 something. I don't feel too bad. I have a lot of customer work, but it's Sunday, and I'm wondering about seeing how much of what's left to do to this instrument I can get done today...(??)

Right now Mrs bloke is fixing me some wonderful breakfast (leftover quiche, because the chickens are showering us with eggs, and the new ducks have also begun to lay) I'm watching the 1960s West/Ward Batman on H&I trying to drink enough coffee to become functional. There are some wild episode(s) I've never seen before with Art Carney playing some evil archer...(??)
UPDATE: Lynda Carter is now on - donning her patriotic costume.

Do any of y'all think we're going to have a banking system left by the end of this coming week?

[MikeMason]

Rereading this thread. Whew! Wouldn’t a main tuning slide device of some sore solved all these problems with so much less hassle?

[bloke]

Absolutely not.

Main slide triggers are for tubas that play badly out of tune with themselves.
This instrument just had three slides in particular that were either too long or too short. Why monkey with the tuning of the entire instrument all the time when circuits can just be redone to the proper length? Further, with the main slide (entire instrument) too long, what good would it have done to put a trigger on it?

Most people lip up the typically flat fourth partial 23 combination pitch on their instruments (middle range)
B-flat tuba: F#
C tuba: Ab
E-flat tuba: B
F tuba: Db
Some tubas might play this pitch in tune, but many players seem to push the #3 slide in too far and tend to play the other three 23 pitches too sharp.
Now that I've lengthened the #3 circuit to the correct length, and nicely aligned that slide (which is positioned unusually in the upper back part of the instrument) it sits just under my left forearm - when I'm continuing to keep my hand on the #1 slide, and I can subtly move my left forearm downward for the middle range F#, push that slide in about an inch, and a spring can restore it to its needed position for the other three 23 combination pitches. How many other players are offered this luxury (and with this much ease) with their instruments?

5th slide:
It only needs to be moved if I decide to play a single uncommonly played pitch - double low C - with 5234, but now it's easily possible, and even that can be done while still keeping my thumb and index fingers on the first slide.

So I've got
- the entire instrument playing more easily at 440 after having shortened the main slide
- the fifth partial first valve c (1) and b-natural (12) now able to be played up to pitch without lipping - having now shortened the #1 circuit
- one particular 23 combination pitch easily adjusted by a slight downward movement of my left arm - eliminating lipping that pitch
- access to an in tune and true (not a false tone) low C by a flick of my third finger pushing the fifth slide up, and also without having to move my right hand off the #1 slide
===============

...the continual theme/objective of this being that the entire time my left hand's thumb and index finger remain on the #1 slide bow, and never have to be taken away

... and nice big German B-flat tuba with a really clear focused sound that effortlessly offers "iron octaves" with the bass trombone.. What's not to like?

[MikeMason]

What would you estimate the retail cost of your engineering solutions and execution thereof to be to a non repairing player? 1500-2500 my guess. For 125$, I had my tech lap my main slide and attach a brass rod to be operated by my left 2nd and third fingers while other fingers grasp outer top bow for stability. Yes, you have to learn where to put the slide for every note,which takes some diligence. I guess I was influenced by James Jenkins who grew up playing a marzan b flat piston. It was stolen and he moved on to other horns but always has a main slide stick put on his horns, currently and for quite a while , a 822f and a fully restored 6/4 York b flat. This only works with a vertical main slide that is long enough and can be pulled in enough. My f and b flat fit the bill. The Eastman really doesn’t need it. 1st and 4th are adequate and move great

[bloke]

I suppose the amount of time and effort considered to be within reason (spent on improving an instrument towards offering that instrument the opportunity to realize it's full potential) depends on the quality, performance potential, and the value of the instrument itself.

When I was out of town doing a subscription series over the weekend, I stopped by a friend's (who is a high performance, super luxury car and race car mechanic) shop. I was there to pick up his French horn to repair it and bring it back next month. He was telling me some pretty fascinating things that are done to really fast or really expensive cars to make them run or perform just a little bit better. Those are not things that are worth doing to consumer grade vehicles, but they are definitely noticeable on really fine pieces of machinery.

even something like this:
When a set of King pistons become worn - and the casings are only a little bit worn, why not drop in a new set of "new" Conn-Selmer pistons (such as they are ), rather than spending over twice as much money to remove the valve section, have the casings honed to perfect cylinders, rebuilding the pistons to perfect cylinders, precision fitting everything, and then reinstalling the valve section?

I believe the difference is to what degree an individual player is willing to be distracted by their instrument (struggling to overcome its shortcomings), when trying to concentrate on the music.

Driving yesterday, I listened to an interview of a man who is working to bring back commercial supersonic airliner passenger flight, has been working on it since 2014, and may not end up with an a supersonic airliner that is what he is looking to build/accomplish/achieve until possibly 2029. They've built thousands of carbon fiber models and learned something from each one about shape, use of space, fuel economy, how to run it on less expensive fuels, safety, causes and effect of all sorts of things, and more-and-more and on-and-on. He's looking to see if he can make it nearly as affordable (due to remarkable efficiency in absolutely every aspect of design) as subsonic flight. Within a year or two, he could have easily come up with another Concorde type of thing that would have exceeded the speed of sound and carried people across the ocean, but that's not his goal.
When asked by the interviewer about possibly being frustrated by such a long haul, his response was that he absolutely was not frustrated, and how many people get to be in charge of designing supersonic aircraft (??).

When I first played a Model 98 roughly a decade ago in some elephant room, it was immediately apparent that it was a remarkably fine design. After actually acquiring one, I'm - of course - discovering all the little things about it that aren't quite right, and striving to see how close to perfect this design can actually become.

...and one of my flaws is that I don't know when to quit (typing or talking). Some people consider this a really pricey instrument, but when I compare it to a particular Japanese instrument - that is priced at about twice the price and which - to me - is inferior, I view this one as a bargain.
https://www.wwbw.com/Miraphone-98-Siegf ... 93786.wwbw
===========
If there's anything else to say about this, it's that they're probably are so few of these in the United States (with probably only a couple dozen in existence in the world) that there just isn't going to be anyone asking me to do all these things to theirs, and I would probably put them off or discourage them were they to ask me to do all these things, because I've got other stuff to do and it's a struggle to do this to my own instrument in my (so-called) spare time. I've heard a couple of YouTube videos uploaded by someone in southern Europe who apparently owns one of these, and - based on their style of playing - I doubt that they would be interested in any of these mods.

[MikeMason]

I do like having a big rotory b flat in the arsenal. It’s a cool sound, fun to play (not easy,but fun),and I’ve kept mine on a tight budget. With the little things I’ve had done, I can now play everything but low b natural and low c is still sharp, but usable in a pinch. I dream of a 5th valve but probably not worth it. If Wade needed a summer project……

[bloke]

To me, easy defines fun, and I have both... with all of the instruments that I have kept as my own, anyway.

[bloke]

OK...
I've finished (other than some polishing and lacquer-shootin') the #5 slide assembly.

For those of you who own a recent-vintage Miraphone rotary B-flat tubas (such as 496, etc.), you KNOW that there's NOTHING on this #5 slide that's "stock"...
EDIT: I moved the stop rod assembly around to the right side...poorly-lit pic in a subsequent post.




Noticed is the #3 finger #5 slide puller (for 5234 double-low C)
This slide can be pulled out (for that pitch) while keeping the index finger and thumb positioned on the #1 slide.






Both the back and front are braced. I'm trying to remember, but I don't believe that the stock #5 slide sported braces on either the front or the back.

[bloke]

The short (Yamaha alto saxophone) posts allow more flexibility of design than buying those Bach trumpet #3 slide things, and the drill size allows for tapping an M3 thread through one of them (as M3 is the common thread size found on European tubas - as well as chino-alikes).
For the receiving post, I simply drilled it out roughly 1mm larger, which allows for comfortable clearance (formerly c. 2.5mm hole, and c. 3.5mm hole after drilling)
Also, I like the simpler appearance of the saxophone posts - vs. the Bach trumpet hardware.

[bloke]

OK...
Before getting back to the Cerveny tuba for the church, I did ONE (two) MORE thing(s) to FaBa, today.

I'm sick and tired of the #1 slide (perfect alignment) falling on the floor - when I rest this thing on it's bell.

I installed a stop rod for the #1 slide, as well.

This one was trickier, because it had to be soldered (and perfectly aligned) on the entire instrument, and not just (as with the #5 slide) onto a removable part. Also, if I didn't pay attention I could have easily burned lacquer on the mouthpipe and/or bell.

There are O-rings on either end of the stroke of this slide because (unlike the #5 slide stop rod) this thing will be constantly in motion, and I HATE metallic clanking noises, when all that is supposed to be sounding is the vibration of a column of air.

The rod supporting posts ARE threaded (again: M3), but the stop nuts are there to "double lock" the stop rods in place. To me, this is more secure than the (Vincent Bach) Allen screw system, and also doesn't distort the stop rod.





FIRST SLIDE MOVIE (LIGHTS...!!! CAMERA...!!! ACTION...!!!!! )
It THUMPS, but - at least - it doesn't "clank".



ALTERNATE LINK:

[bloke]

I got the #3 slide auto-return thing going, today.
Yes - even though this slide is on the BACK of the instrument, this is the #3 valve circuit slide (and NOT the #4).

The spring is a bit stiff, and it makes noise against the rod (even though I custom made a rod, whereby the portion that supports the spring is smooth (not threaded). The metal-against-metal drag (of the spring bunching up) just makes too much noise, and is amplified by the large size of the thin-walled tuba body. I have two lighter/shorter compression springs to try. Maybe "Mama Bear" (the next smaller/shorter one) will be "just right"...(??)

I'm not going to solder a left-hand wrist cradle onto the top of that slide bow unless-and-until I'm completely satisfied with the spring strength and noise level...
...but EVEN IF I never rig this thing up completely, my left arm was repeatedly pushing this slide in all the way (which meant that three of the four pitches played with the 2-3 valve combination were being played - usually - with 2 inches too few tubing), so at least I've got the slide resistant to falling all the way again (again: freely-moving and nicely-aligned, so...)

As is seen (as with all circuits other than #2), I reconfigured the #3 slide.
- It wouldn't pull out far enough for my liking/use (for how I set my slides).
- The slide alignment (whether factory, or due to the tuba having been picked up by the long and lightly-braced #3 circuit tubing) wasn't up to snuff.

...so (notice: NOISE) there's still work to do...

2-3 valve combination pitches.png (9.18 KiB) Viewed 1349 times

alternate video url:

[cjk]

I'm wondering if 2+5 is in the ballpark of working for the Gb which needs the slide all the way in.
Especially since you've already extended and aligned the 5th and put a ring on it. Maybe that could solve this problem too thus making the 3rd valve spring thing unnecessary?

[bloke]

I'm wondering if 2+5 is in the ballpark of working for the Gb which needs the slide all the way in.
Especially since you've already extended and aligned the 5th and put a ring on it. Maybe that could solve this problem too thus making the 3rd valve spring thing unnecessary?

' tried everything...
You KNOW that I prefer alternates (particularly if not excessive amounts of tubing) to moving slides.
(2-5 proved to be 50c sharp, so that combination would call for pushing #5 out at least as far as for "double low" C, and - currently - the rarely-played "double low" C is the only pitch I play whereby moving the 5th slide is required...compared to first-line G-flat, which is routinely played.)

This laughably-bad-yet-clear drawing shows how simple the structure would/will be for the #3 slide to be able to operated by downward pressure from my cradled left wrist (again: whilst continuing to hold onto the #1 slide bow with my left index finger and thumb).

wrist cradle.png (12.13 KiB) Viewed 1302 times

[bloke]

I'm probably not going to tackle this #3 slide wrist cradle thing right away, but I might go ahead and do the partial retubing and alignment the fourth circuit, as a little reward to myself for finishing up the Cerveny tuba to sell to the church.

Something additional that doing this fourth circuit thing will accomplish will be to be able to get rid of the cardboard box in which I have been keeping all of the stuff for these various sub-projects related to this instrument.

(A whole bunch of regular repair gigs are stacking up around here, so I need to get on with it - and quit being sick, too...
...It REALLY is nice now, to NOT have slides falling on the floor off of this thing, when I rest it on its bell. )

[York-aholic]

...It REALLY is nice now, to NOT have slides falling on the floor off of this thing, when I rest it on its bell. )

When your slide alignment is too good.

[bloke]

...It REALLY is nice now, to NOT have slides falling on the floor off of this thing, when I rest it on its bell. )

When your slide alignment is too good.

Yeah...
The first slide was actually doing this from day one - before I did anything to it myself, and it is not loose-fitting... really exasperating, but I just didn't have time until recently to stop and build that stop rod.

[bloke]

Instead of starting on the 4th circuit today, it was another sort of sick day for me. I tried to work on a trumpet, but I didn't do very well, because I sort of had brain fog.

Mrs. bloke had a meeting in Memphis. I always take her,
because it's too dangerous for her to go by herself. I did stop along the way and buy a long jaws caliper, because - without that - it would be difficult to align the overlapping slide pairs in the fourth circuit.

To review, the plan is to replace a very long slightly damaged outside slide tube, replace three red-rotting slide bows with gold brass slide bows, replace some make-do goofy-bent Miraphone water keys (the type designed for 186 instruments, but factory-bent in a non-elegant way, in my view) with some which are more appropriate (B&S style) for mounting on curved slide bows, install longer inside slide tubes on the upper slide, and step up the alignment just a bit.
... a bit daunting, and a challenge to get it all done in one day...
... at least this circuit is not calling for any slide stop rods, thank goodness.

[MikeMason]

Wow. Red rotting bows? How old is the tuba? My 190 is probably 50-70 years old. No sign of that, though maybe I don’t know what or where to look. Yellow brass.

[bloke]

Wow. Red rotting bows? How old is the tuba? My 190 is probably 50-70 years old. No sign of that, though maybe I don’t know what or where to look. Yellow brass.

It's 8 - 10 (??) years old, and probably the original owner didn't empty the fourth circuit out either during play or afterward. The other circuits drain themselves, as happens with most all rotary instruments. Red rot depends on the person who plays an instrument, much more than anything else... but my failsafe has always been attempting to drench the interior of an instrument's valveset with oil.
I've never rotted any brass on instruments, but I'm putting 80/20 brass bows - in place of the 70/30 ones. These bows are the very same ones Miraphone uses on model 88 tubas for main tuning slide bows.

[bloke]

OK...

THANKS to Mrs. bloke for holding the instrument - for extended periods of time - at advantageous angles, I was able to get this entire 4th circuit (which could have EASILY ended up being a "can of worms") aligned really well...

...so now (even though the slides all "float") it's time to REPLACE the slide bows with new (gold brass) ones.

It would have been pointless to replace them without really aligning the OUTSIDE slide tubes properly; all I would have gained would have been "no red-rot". This way, I get something tangible/noticeable: ALIGNMENT.

As previously stated, (just for $h!tz 'n' giggles) I'm probably going to make the upper slide LONGER at the expensive of the intermediate (center) slide - THOUGH the center slide needs to be long ENOUGH to be pulled out for tuning (as I certainly don't want to have the top of bottom slides handing out at all).

d@mn krauts...
They built this loop-the-loop assembly with nice 3-piece socket/flange (adjustable) braces, but - guess what they did...(??) They friggin' SILVER BRAZED them, rather than lead-soldering them (so they are de facto one-piece) There's NO WAY I was going to order more of those things, so (rather than ordering replacement braces) I decided to fill a couple of the flanges with lead solder. I managed to get everything parallel and coplanar by ONLY filling ONE flange a bit excessively (I'm thinking perhaps 1/16" of pooled-up solder)...so it's "cool".

I did replace ONE outside slide tube - the LONGEST (most critical) one. The original one had received just a bit of (slightly) rough treatment in the past. OK...re: "d@mn krauts"...The replacement tube is ABSOLUTELY SUBLIME (straight/perfect/smooth-interior/"pre-lapped" ). The structure of this wild "loop-the-loop" is now all parallel and coplanar, I can rebuild the (moving/inside) slides, replace their slide bows, and install proper/appropriate (curved) water keys on them - and with the water key nipples (not in the centers of the bows, but) off over to the SIDES of the bows - in playing position.








bloke "The alignment of all three of these #4 circuit slides makes me a little bit giddy - particularly how easy it was to achieve, and the punch list for this instrument is getting shorter-and-shorter. The conductor and his caboose will probably be seen, shortly."