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So much discussion, hand-wringing, and practicing effort have gone into “the trill” in the Meistersinger prelude…
…Were people to just play it on an F tuba – and except the TRUTH that their lower C naturals sound much louder to the patrons than they sound to themselves -
“the trill” is so VERY easy (not to mention achieving more clarity, and breathing less often), that it (ie. “the trill”, not “the piece”) really doesn’t even require any practicing.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:02 am bumping an OLD thread...

Brahms II (yet again...ie. in the "top 40 of the violin cover-bands") next week in Memphis.

F tuba?

yup.

When someone's at the other end of the section playing an alto trombone, that could (??) serve those (who might be trying to decide) with somewhat of a "context clue" as to whether haul in a "bass" or a "contrabass" instrument.

For an orchestral audition, I would do this on CC. I’ve performed this twice on CC.

I got a call this week to sub in a professional orchestra I’ve worked with several times. They are performing the Poulenc Double Piano Concerto, a new work, and Beethoven 5and having heard one of my teachers perform this Poulenc work, I liked it on CC. I listened to Royal Concertgebouw, and it was done on F. Sounded different.

Maybe I have old man syndrome, but more as of late, works like this that I may have brought two tubas for in the past, I am letting the overall music dictate what to bring.

With that being said, I have a great F tuba, which works great not only for solo repertoire, but it is an amazing quintet horn, and has no issues balancing a large orchestra.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:19 am So much discussion, hand-wringing, and practicing effort have gone into “the trill” in the Meistersinger prelude…
…Were people to just play it on an F tuba – and except the TRUTH that their lower C naturals sound much louder to the patrons than they sound to themselves -
“the trill” is so VERY easy (not to mention achieving more clarity, and breathing less often), that it (ie. “the trill”, not “the piece”) really doesn’t even require any practicing.

The color of F tuba seems to work better too when I played it. I was preparing it on F tuba for an audition years back when the symphony updated their list and requested this excerpt be performed on CC tuba.

russiantuba wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:30 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:19 am So much discussion, hand-wringing, and practicing effort have gone into “the trill” in the Meistersinger prelude…
…Were people to just play it on an F tuba – and except the TRUTH that their lower C naturals sound much louder to the patrons than they sound to themselves -
“the trill” is so VERY easy (not to mention achieving more clarity, and breathing less often), that it (ie. “the trill”, not “the piece”) really doesn’t even require any practicing.

The color of F tuba seems to work better too when I played it. I was preparing it on F tuba for an audition years back when the symphony updated their list and requested this excerpt be performed on CC tuba.

' sounds like a tuba player - and not a music director - shoehorned in that requirement.
I would be difficult for me to believe that anyone - other than a tuba player - would add in that specification.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:00 pm
' sounds like a tuba player - and not a music director - shoehorned in that requirement.
I would be difficult for me to believe that anyone - other than a tuba player - would add in that specification.

I loaned my F tuba ti my teacher a couple months after getting it, so I could hear what it could really sound like with a full time symphony. We were starting an opera that week with the university orchestra (Falstaff), and the conductor (quite an intimidating, scary fellow) stopped the orchestra and asked if I had an F tuba, or better yet, a cimbasso pitched in F, because he prefers the color of the F tuba for this work. I think conductors are learning, but it does seem odd that for an audition, they would specify this. I suspected that someone subbing in suggested this, or that someone asked via e-mail to clarify.

One of my orchestras' music directors has asked - more than once, "bloke, Did you bring the big trombone?"

...but never has seemed to give a crap whether I was playing my large C, short B-flat, tall B-flat, brown F, bell-front E-flat, or (even) baritone horn...

...as long as it wasn't bad, and I didn't play in the rests.

fwiw...When something is marked loud for the tuba, he likes it LOUD...
...one passages or individual pitches that - traditionally - are EXTREMELY loud, he has NEVER told me that I was too loud...
(Admittedly, recordings bear out his consistent abstentions. )

I have a list of pieces that I think work best on a Miraphone 184.

Meistersinger and Brahms 2 are on that list. I want the timbre of a smaller tuba, so F makes sense. But there's enough below the staff playing that F feels unstable. So CC tuba makes sense. The 184 covers all the bases. Also they're fun to play.

A lot of the discussion in this thread is about whether Terry was trying to learn on a tuba that … obscured the character and benefits of an F tuba.

I stumbled on this bloke quote from 18 years ago:

Playing the F tuba is such a foreign experience at first that it would be really nice to be able to play someone else's F tuba (or two or three someone elses' F tubas) for a few weeks/months prior to shopping. It would be nice to encounter some incredibly generous colleagues who might allow you to step into their practice rooms and play their F tubas while they're off resting in the break room/hallway for a few minutes. It would be very easy to buy a bad instrument. As most F tubas are indeed bad, combining this unfortunate factor with a complete lack of judgement would just about guarantee ownership of a bad instrument...On the other hand, bad instruments are bought and sold every day, and after you gained some experience on your first nearly-inevitably-bad F tuba, you could then search with more insight and while selling it to another F tuba newbie. Finally, if you limit your search to "piston valve" F tubas, you will only be considering about 1/5 of the available models - further increasing the chances of purchasing a bad instrument.

Is it any easier now to find a decent not-too-expensive (probably used) F tuba with witch to get started?

Stryk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:32 pm First, let me say that I think the F tuba is the spawn of Satan. I have an ok F (Dalyan Chinese one). I am starting to get the hang of it, but more than ever, I am wondering why anyone would need one. Help me out here. I can't play as high or as low as on my full size C tubas, nor does ANYTHING sound better. In fact, I can play higher with a better tone on my 184 C. Other than "My professor told me I needed one", what is the reasoning?

Is this still your one-and-only F tuba?

I played a (real) Miraphone one (three or four years ago (belonged to a graduate student, and was stored in the closet in a university studio teacher's studio).
I have played on one back in the 70's a bit, pulled that one out, tooted on it for about 20 seconds, and it seemed OK...better than OK...sorta fun...different from my own.
I have had very little experience with them (real Miraphone ones), but they weren't "bad" experiences.
I'm not repeating that which I've typed on this website far too many times (regarding approaching "tuba" instruments which are different from those to which one is accustomed).

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 5:09 pm

Is this still your one-and-only F tuba?

It is. I played a JP for a few minutes and it was definitely easier for me. The thing is, I really have no reason to use one other than the challenge. I am 66, not in the best of health, don't do paid gigs anymore, so not a whole lot of motivation to overcome the confusion of the fingerings to delve into the F tuba world. Meanwhile, my cute little 5 valve F just sits in it's case. I am close to thinning out the herd, and it will leave here eventually. I have more than enough really good horns to last me a few lifetimes!

I'd never worried about F tubas until I ended up on the high part in brass band. I'll be 66 sometime (maybe), don't have any paying gigs, and the fingerings were a mess for a few weeks, but now F tuba is just so much fun! It's fun to improvise and jam with. It's fun to sometimes play inner harmonies and maybe even a melody. It's fun to use 4th and 5th valves as part of normal playing and not just for a few notes that you hardly ever see.

The first F tuba I got just hinted at the fun, though. If I hadn't swapped it for something better, I'd probably also be saying there's nothing easier compared to the C tuba, so why bother.

Maybe this is something where you have to either be lucky or have a teacher guide you (and goad you) through it.

Stryk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:37 am

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 5:09 pm

Is this still your one-and-only F tuba?

It is. I played a JP for a few minutes and it was definitely easier for me. The thing is, I really have no reason to use one other than the challenge. I am 66, not in the best of health, don't do paid gigs anymore, so not a whole lot of motivation to overcome the confusion of the fingerings to delve into the F tuba world. Meanwhile, my cute little 5 valve F just sits in it's case. I am close to thinning out the herd, and it will leave here eventually. I have more than enough really good horns to last me a few lifetimes!

I'm playing more and more of the PRE-tuba orchestral works (and some of the French "tuba en ut" works) on my very large-belled (large: top-to-bottom) and .590" bore euphonium, rather than F tuba.
- I don't need to be a hero.
- I don't need to prove anything.
- I don't need to do as others do (or as others do because they're not "adequate" euphonium players - which I consider myself to be...ie. NOT a "soloist"...but adequate).
- I don't need to "overplay" UNLESS the concept of the piece OR the "performance decibel levels" of the piece have changed since (serpent/ophicleide) the early 1800's or since (prior to 1950 or so) some French and "when-in-France" pieces were composed.

F tuba is a wonderful quintet tuba, and (if someone really want's to hear some on a chamber recital...??) solo tuba. I only tend to use a contrabass tuba with brass quintets at funerals/weddings/commencements/etc. - where large-scale works are arranged for five brass.

I do SOME quintet work (much less than in the past), no weekly "recreational" quintet playing, the overwhelming orchestral playing is with a contrabass tuba (or pops: probably 2/3rds to 3/4ths cimbasso, as - over the years - "pops" material has crept from the 1930's-1960's to the 1960's-1990's - calling upon me to more appropriately produce "harder" sounds), I've moved over to the euphonium for the early works, and - at home, playing through etudes and other-instruments' solo pieces - I still pick up the contrabass (as I'm continuously striving to become a better contrabass player), the F tuba gets dusted off for quintet jobs and polka jobs...and (sadly) mostly sits (the saving grace being that - as "THE WORLD'S GREATEST F TUBA IN EXISTENCE" - I don't have to practice on it prior to those gigs...just "grab and go").


bloke "This is all the same crap I've posted in the past. "

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:47 pmIs it any easier now to find a decent not-too-expensive (probably used) F tuba with witch to get started?

Probably. If on a tight budget and was demanding a "new" instrument (which is an intolerable combination in my mind, but one you had wisely already rejected), I'd be looking for a Chinese copy of a B&S PT-10. These will be PT-10 copies, not Symphonie copies, with all that entails. But they still in my view sing better than the competition, even when they are Asian copies. But the presence of those tubas on the market has depressed prices for used instruments, which is why "probably".

Better still would be a used B&S Symphonie model, with the fully graduated bore. I've bought two of these over the years, and the most expensive one was about the price of the best Chinese clones at the time. I don't know what it would be now, but I suspect the clones have gone up more than the used Symphonies have. Note that not all B&S Symphonie tubas are so marked. Look for the fully graduated bore, where 1, 5 and 6 have a 17mm bore rather than the 19mm bore of the PT models. The oldest of these have too short a 5th-valve branch, but that can be addressed. If you don't want to have to address it, look for one where the fifth-valve branch poked up above the upper bow by a couple of inches without being all-the-way extended.

If you just want something really cheap to learn on, look for a used four-valve F, but recognize that gigging opportunities with it will be limited because of the limited options in the lower register. And they aren't easy to find.

I also still like my Yamaha 621 for lots of things, but while those were a stunning value for what they were in 1991 they are now much more expensive, new or used.

I would probably avoid the usual suspects other than the B&S, though the rotary Willson is nice (though I don't know about intonation) and there are several very nice Miraphones, particularly the smaller models in F. These tend to be more expensive, however, so might meet your needs only if a unique buying opportunity came your way.

Rick "never paid more than a smidge over $4K for an F tuba, and has owned three great ones" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:Rick "never paid more than a smidge over $4K for an F tuba, and has owned three great ones" Denney

I paid 'only' $2500 for 'The World's Best-Ever F Tuba'...

...but most people who say stuff like that are being stupid:

I know - full well - that is at least the equivalent (ref: inflation) of around $8000, today.

bloke "HA! ...and many assumed that the 'stupid' remark referred to 'World's Best-Ever...' to which it did NOT"

I actually use my F tuba more often than my C. I’m more of an F tuba “player” whatever that means. You could say I’m more comfortable on it.

Anyway, I’ve had my fair share. Rick mentions the rotary Willson F. *my particular example* is spectacular. It’s not as in-tune as a Symphonie. But I just played it with my band last night and it did just fine. Minor slide adjustment required.

This particular horn cost $5500 if I remember correctly. After negotiations. In 2023 dollars for the caliber of tuba it is, I’m quite happy. It does need some work. It’s had some significant damage done to it in the past, but since it plays so well I’m not worrying until life settles.

The problem you’ll find is, well, they’re not common. At all. Not many exist over here.

Budget F tuba? You CAN find ugly examples of B&S tubas that will suit you just fine. Those Chinese copies also play pretty well as mentioned but you might want to check out the build quality.

I might suggest an older MW 45 or PT if available. You at least know what you’re getting. Just my 2 cents. I hope something helps.

I still wonder about that B&S bell on the JP piston body that Joe put together.

Why F tuba? Because that's the timbre so many composers wrote for. It's the sound character, not the range.

That said, I've pretty much given up on F tuba. It sounds so "alto voice" to me (no matter who's playing it) that I don't feel it sounds much like my idea of what a tuba should sound like. It missed the depth and authoritative quality I like to hear in the tuba. Eb is where it's at.

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:23 pm

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:47 pmIs it any easier now to find a decent not-too-expensive (probably used) F tuba with witch to get started?

…
Better still would be a used B&S Symphonie model, with the fully graduated bore. I've bought two of these over the years, and the most expensive one was about the price of the best Chinese clones at the time. I don't know what it would be now, but I suspect the clones have gone up more than the used Symphonies have. Note that not all B&S Symphonie tubas are so marked. Look for the fully graduated bore, where 1, 5 and 6 have a 17mm bore rather than the 19mm bore of the PT models. The oldest of these have too short a 5th-valve branch, but that can be addressed. If you don't want to have to address it, look for one where the fifth-valve branch poked up above the upper bow by a couple of inches without being all-the-way extended.
…

You’ve been recommending Symphonies for a while, and Bloke has been persuasive that he has the very best Symphonie. Are there any left?

jtm wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 4:16 pm

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:23 pm

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:47 pmIs it any easier now to find a decent not-too-expensive (probably used) F tuba with witch to get started?

…
Better still would be a used B&S Symphonie model, with the fully graduated bore. I've bought two of these over the years, and the most expensive one was about the price of the best Chinese clones at the time. I don't know what it would be now, but I suspect the clones have gone up more than the used Symphonies have. Note that not all B&S Symphonie tubas are so marked. Look for the fully graduated bore, where 1, 5 and 6 have a 17mm bore rather than the 19mm bore of the PT models. The oldest of these have too short a 5th-valve branch, but that can be addressed. If you don't want to have to address it, look for one where the fifth-valve branch poked up above the upper bow by a couple of inches without being all-the-way extended.
…

You’ve been recommending Symphonies for a while, and Bloke has been persuasive that he has the very best Symphonie. Are there any left?

John,

I love my 1974 6v GB Symphonie. Mine belonged to Georg Schwark of the Berlin Radio Orchestra. I seem to recall Georg was the only owner, but I can be corrected. @TheBerlinerTuba helped me acquire it when Georg retired. It is the unicorn I was always wanting. It might be easier to find one in Europe like I did.

But you are in luck. Our friend Daniel Ridder @Kontrabasstuba has one for sale.

Daniel’s Symphonie

Doc wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 4:25 pm I love my 1974 6v GB Symphonie. Mine belonged to Georg Schwark of the Berlin Radio Orchestra. @TheBerlinerTuba helped me acquire it. The unicorn I was always wanting.

It that one of the tubas that appears on TheBerlinerTuba’s Symphonie guide page? I just ran across your unboxing video a couple days ago, and it looks amazing.