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The difference is that I didn't come up through a band program. I started piano at age six, and that has two concert pitch clefs, treble and bass. The note on the paper means a specific key on the piano, and it doesn't matter which finger you play it with, or even your nose or toe or whatever you want -- it means a specific pitch, which we happen to call concert pitch.
Those who came up through a band program generally learned something entirely different, that a dot on the page means put these fingers down and the right note is supposed to come out. You need somewhat of an ear on brass because you can get more than one note out with a particular fingering, but if you play trumpet or horn, the names you learn for the pitch you HEAR is different from the name that pitch would be on the piano. So if a piano is reading a third space C, it comes out as a concert pitch C. If a trumpet is reading a third space C, it comes out as a concert pitch Bb, but the trumpet player, if that is his first instrument, calls it a C even though it is actually a Bb.
So next I learned viola, which reads alto clef, and so that was three concert pitch clefs. Finally horn came along at age 45, and the silly notes had the wrong names for the pitches that came out, so I just renamed them in my head to the correct pitches. So third space C is, in my head, an F. The only twist was that the bottom space had to have a flat added to it, and so I called that bottom space Bb. I read all "transpositions" that way, in concert pitch with the name of the note being the concert (as on a piano) pitch, and horn players read a LOT of transpositions. I don't even know how people CAN transpose --- I can't think that fast, that every note is X away from what it is "normally."
For me, incredibly easier to read by concert pitch. I never came up learning to read by the dot meaning "put these fingers down." Piano, like I said, it only means play this key on the piano, any way you want. Violin --- similar; you can play those notes in a bunch of different places on the violin, as many as four for quite a few of them. So a note doesn't mean "put these fingers down." It means, play this pitch in whatever way works the best ergonomically and musically. A double horn doesn't have as many combinations, but it has quite a few.
For the record, I think everyone should start on piano for a couple of years before they learn another instrument. The background enhances the entire learning process later.

That's somewhat like my story, maybe from starting with voice and recorders. Recorders are made in different pitches, all played concert pitch except for the octave. So indeed I tend to think of the notes by their concert pitch names.

It's funny trying to talk to people who play the higher pitch band instruments, but that's most of the difference. When reading music, you have a dot, and ideally you know a way to play that dot. I'm sure there are practically an infinite variety of neural cognitive linkages that get us there, some of them more effective than others.

I've gone through quite a few E-flat-for-playing-jazz instruments since I began using E-flat instruments for this purpose in 1979, but the one I have now is 3 + 1 compensating. Being of that configuration seems to help me remember what actual pitches I'm playing, rather than just "capo-ed" patterns.

In the US, tuba is concert pitch and you just learn the fingerings wether it’s a BB♭, CC, E♭, or F tuba. That’s a much simpler approach to me. I don’t know why all brass isn’t written in concert pitch, but it is hilarious when your trumpet player forgets that Sleigh Ride is written for C trumpet and they play their part on their B♭ trumpet.

KerryAbear wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:26 pm In the US, tuba is concert pitch and you just learn the fingerings wether it’s a BB♭, CC, E♭, or F tuba. That’s a much simpler approach to me. I don’t know why all brass isn’t written in concert pitch, but it is hilarious when your trumpet player forgets that Sleigh Ride is written for C trumpet and they play their part on their B♭ trumpet.

I suppose they might reach down and grab the B-flat, because the original band/orchestra parts are B-flat parts...
...but most trumpet players I know can read several transpositions on any of their trumpets.

This is my buddy...We love each udder, but don't vote for duh same peeps.

He's always been hilarious, but - seemingly - even more so, since a friend of his saved his life, and gave him one of their kidneys.

Here's his version of Sleigh Ride:



Here's his verbal treatise on what nearly everyone sucks really bad - doing the horse whinny.

jtm wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:27 pm All the parts are in treble clef (except bass trombone). The fellow with the Eb tuba has the right combination. He's a bass trombone player first, though, so he may think in concert pitches and transpose from the Eb part; I've never asked.

Mike Lynch and I are both playing Fs, and we transpose and think in concert pitches. Fortunately, the Eb treble clef notes are in the same places as concert bass clef, so if we remember to add three flats to the key signature (and use special care with some of the accidentals) it reads like bass clef. Last year (before the picture), I was playing the Eb part on a smallish C tuba, using the same approach.

The three guys on Bb bass are playing on C tubas and transposing treble clef. I haven't asked if they have tricks. If I moved to Bb, I'd probably use a Bb tuba (since I'm lucky enough to have one, even though it's rotary) and read with trumpet fingerings, as intended.

The rest of the band is using the proper traditional instruments: Eb and Bb horns separate from euphoniums, Bb and Eb cornets, and trombones.

It still tickles me pink that Jimmy Bigham is still playing tuba. He was such a wonderful kid and student and even better adult!! Very proud of him!!

Do old German rotary Eb tubas present the same kind of tuning adventures as similar F tubas? Or does that extra step make a big difference in playability?

What have I gotten myself into, now!?

The brass band I've been impostering with for a couple of years held auditions (first time, I think), and I won solo Eb bass. Now I'll have to take it seriously and learn the parts and other responsible stuff. Guess I'll have to stop claiming I'm not really a tuba player; now I'm just a not particularly good (but genuine) tuba player.

jtm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:09 am What have I gotten myself into, now!?

The brass band I've been impostering with for a couple of years held auditions (first time, I think), and I won solo Eb bass. Now I'll have to take it seriously and learn the parts and other responsible stuff. Guess I'll have to stop claiming I'm not really a tuba player; now I'm just a not particularly good (but genuine) tuba player.

Solo Eb Bass on a Miraphone PT-10-alike?

You need to let everyone know you're actually Solo F Bass, instead. And if only you had been Solo D- Bass, you could've graduated to euphonium.

Well I have an old German rotary Eb tuba (Mirafone 183, full of big dents) and it has no intonation problems anywhere near as bad as a typical 184CC tuba. It is uncompromisingly flat in the high range but served me just fine in brass band.

jtm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:09 am What have I gotten myself into, now!?

The brass band I've been impostering with for a couple of years held auditions (first time, I think), and I won solo Eb bass. Now I'll have to take it seriously and learn the parts and other responsible stuff. Guess I'll have to stop claiming I'm not really a tuba player; now I'm just a not particularly good (but genuine) tuba player.

Such competition is, I think, worrisome and smacks of elitism - which eventually ends in misery. Of course excellence and improvement can be good but the road to hell is paved with good intentions; I’ve seen too many Bandsmen eased out or forever looking over their shoulders as the band’s standard of playing rises. It’s a difficult path to follow with compassion for your playing pals; there is a time for the noticeably weak player to ‘make way’ but if there’s no compassion and comradeship then something is wrong.

The better quality bands do have a Solo or Principle Eb Bass but, to be honest, auditions - effectively a music exam - are a poor judge of such things. The section knows, and the conductor should know, who’s the better player, who can bring out the best in his/her section mates and who is the more reliable person. I’m arguably the best player in my section but I aim to be the weakest and so by improving what my section mates can do; team building is not about self but the player that has to competitively and formally audition might well wonder about supporting their competitors ….

I've been wanting an EEb for years and finally got one- I bought a Besson from our own arpthark and a mouthpiece from our own bloke. I was struck by how easy and fun it is and had a great time learning to play it. I found that playing French horn music works very well for it.

Then I got sent to Florida for hurricane work. I'll get back home in a month or so and hopefully build some skills on it again.

I just played my first ever Eb gig, a private party on a lake. I did make a few mistakes, but mostly covered by treating them as non-chord passing tones. I found chromatic passages easier to maneuver than intervals. Jumping 3rds and 6ths were the most difficult, on half-steps 5 decades of chromatic scales took over.
I did find that it was too easy to overblow and sound blatty, but when I kept that in check the M83 did carry the bass line nicely.
I need more real playing experience, more than solo practice.
Tim

My main gig just started a new season, and our first rehearsal was this past Monday.

I was gonna have some work done on my old Holton Monster E-flat this off-season, but never got around to it. Being a 1929 model, it seemed to me as if it might have been built to A=435 and could've used a cut-down to bring it up to 440.

Really wanting to play my brawny Holton instead of my uninspiring Schiller 3/4 BB-flat, I gathered up an array of tuba mouthpieces Monday afternoon, dug out my tuner, and did some testing with the hopes of finding a mouthpiece that didn't blow flat. Here's what my analysis turned up, from best to worst, and not lipping anything into tune:

Pitches used: Eb2/Bb2/Eb3
Schilke 66: +5/0/0 cents
Kelly 18: +5/0/-5
Kelly 25: 0/-5/-10
Kelly 24AW: -5/-5/-10
Perantucci PT-62: 0/-10/-10
Holton (Bach copy) 7: 0/-15/-20
Holton (Bach copy) 12: +5/-10/-20
Perantucci PT-64: 0/-20/-20
Kelly KELLYberg: 0/-30/-20
Unbranded Helleberg 7B copy: -20/-15/-15
The unmarked MP that came with my Schiller BB-flat: -25/-25/-20

Needless to say, I was very pleasantly surprised that the Holton was both up-to-pitch and reasonably in-tune with itself with the Schilke 66, a mouthpiece that was bought specifically for my Schiller tuba and never tried with the Holton.

The Holton came with me to rehearsal Monday with the Schilke 66, and turned in a fine performance in every aspect. Not having to worry anymore about playing "at the top of the slots" to stay up to pitch, I could focus properly on tone and articulation, and the results were just glorious.

My little study above also demonstrates just how mouthpiece-finicky these old Monsters can be when it comes to intonation.