TubaForum.net

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:40 pmHow does one fill a leadpipe with lead? What does your setup for that process look like?

@arpthark

Everyone was taught in a different manner, so, as with most things in this field, there is not one official way to do it. You learn to use the tools to do some specific tasks then you are expected to figure out how to get the tools to do what you need.

My procedure actually uses a different filler, which is this funky bismuth alloy called Wood's Metal. It is available by several commercial names, each being a slightly different concoction. The brand *I* like is called Cerrobend. And it is probably nastier to work with than lead or pitch, but it works better for me. ($1 to Ian for pointing me to this product.) Cerrobend has an advantage over other fillers. Pitch is soft, so it tends to deform the most when bending tubes. It is also nasty to get out of the tube. Lead very slightly contracts when it cools, so it fills the tube sort of loosely and can cause ripples when bent. It is also a lot harder to bend tuba-sized tubes using lead. It can be hard to fill a tube without air pockets, which can collapse when bent, causing a kink in the tube. Lead takes a lot of heat to melt so you can pour it down a tube.

Cerrobend has a very low melting point, and it actually *expands* a tiny amount when it cools so that it fits very tightly to the tube wall. It is easier to bend than lead (but not quite as easily as pitch). But it requires using a mask and gloves, and you have to ice-water-quench the tube using very specific instructions or it will not work correctly. It is finicky stuff and very toxic. Melting it out is very easy and clean.

Lead is the easiest for most people to find and work with, but it too is toxic to touch or breathe fumes. (It's a slow-acting sort of toxicity, so I usually just wear one of my N95 masks and wash my hands, arms, and face when finished.)

What I do (which is different than what others likely do):

I coat the inside of the tube with motor oil. I let it drain out to the point of there being a very slow drip. I tightly cork the small end of the leadpipe. I have a 5-gallon bucket of sand that I stick the corked end of the pipe into about a foot deep so that there is no way the tube will tump over on me and spill the molten lead all over my feet as I scream and dance about in pain.

I have a hot plate burner and an old 2 qt. saucepan for this, along with a steel ladle for pouring molten metal. I put the pot on the burner and turn it on. I place a 5-pound ingot of lead (or an already used "pancake" from a previous melting) in the pot and let it heat up and fully melt. The pot has been hammered over an anvil to have a pour spout that is sort of long and narrow to work with small diameter tubes. If I only need a little lead I will use the ladle, but for a leadpipe, I will pour directly from the pot into the pipe.

You must pour slowly to prevent any air pockets from developing. Air pockets can cause kinks when bent, as stated above. MORE IMPORTANTLY, though, is that when heating the pipe up to remove the lead the air pocket can "burp" a mess of molten lead onto your skin! So fill the pipe using a slow but steady flow of lead. Fill it all the way until it is just doming up over the top. It will contract down into the tube about a quarter inch. Let it cool for a long time. I usually leave a pipe like this for an hour or so. If it is still warm to the touch the lead in the center might still be soft. Leave it until it is room temperature!

Once you have bent the tube a little, tap down the ripples — gently! — until it looks reasonable. Bend a little more, tap a little more. Keep doing this until the desired shape is achieved.

To remove the lead I hold the new leadpipe with the large end facing downwards, and I heat the end until the lead is running out, and I keep the flame hot and constantly moving to melt it out all the way around, working my way toward the small end in three to four-inch segments. Do not allow the lead to splash. Keep the pipe end very close to the surface of the drained-out lead because sometimes solid hunks will fall out suddenly, and skin grafts sort of suck.

Eventually, you will have worked all the way to the small end. (You wore heavy cowhide gloves. Right? And you used some sort of tongs that will not mar the finish of the tube. Right?) Once that is done, remove the cork (if it is still even there) and heat the tube again to burn out the oil and release any remaining lead. Let it fully cool again. Run some hot water and get a snake and some DAWN (which will help to remove any oil residue) and scrub that puppy out really well. Put it in a container of straight white vinegar to soak for a little while to eat out the rest of the junk inside. Get a light and check the inside to see if it is CLEAN. If there is lead remaining estimate where it is with a Sharpie on the exterior and hit those spots again. Repeat the washout process. Check it again. Get it clean!

Feed the leftover lead to people you dislike.

Okay, save it because it is not cheap and can be reused many times. I drain it back into the bent-up cook pot I melt it in. It will not adhere to good stainless. Once it has been fully collected leave it alone to cool. Once it is cool you can pry it out of the pan and put it into a ziplock baggie for storage.

All this applies to pitch, too, but the washout work is tedious as the pitch is NASTY to remove. Cerrobend is actually designed to be a bendable filler so it has all these cool characteristics, one of which is that it comes out fully with no real fuss or mess. Again, it is toxic and a PITA to use. If you choose to use a bismuth alloy like Wood's Metal you must read and re-read the instructions, which have more steps and must be followed correctly or you will have problems.

Good luck!

I was able to purchase a replacement leadpipe today. I ought to have it by the end of next week. Who knew you could pay for tuba parts using brass quintet arrangements?

I usually heat mouthpipes red hot in order to turn what’s left of the pitch into ash, so I can wash it out with Dawn.
Also, I quench these red hot mouthpipes, so they don’t end up being soft/annealed.
Maybe this isn’t right (??), but it’s how I’ve had success cleaning out pitch.

Maybe this goes without saying, but I do all of this outdoors - even when it’s bitter cold. I couldn’t imagine doing it indoors, as - if I turned the ventilation up to that necessary level - I would lose all of my heat for air conditioning in my work room.

Yeah, I forgot about burning out the pitch. I usually do that. I couldn't remember. And yes, I do 90% of my work outdoors anyway, so I did not think to mention that, taking it as a given in my case. (Can you tell how often I *don't* bend tubing?)

I dread bending mouthpipes, but seem to somehow usually get lucky.
I got stupid lucky with the little Holton B-flat that I built, which had several bends and no room for error.
I don’t mind bending my own, but become a little bit concerned when others ask me to do it for them.
I suspect that most of us - who do repairs - don’t do all that much tubing bending – particularly not compared to manufacturers.
A trick that I have taught myself is to go ahead and mount a bent/clean mouthpipe tube - even if some of the portions of it are somewhat oval, and then pull drilled balls through the ovaled areas with a cable after they are mounted. If there is a mouthpipe tube like this that I am heating red hot to get rid of pitch, I do not quench that pipe and just leave it annealed, because it’s much easier – then – to pull drilled balls through it and round it. (Have I mentioned before that I’m pretty lazy?) I’ve noticed that it is not uncommon for factory mouthpipes to feature fairly oval areas.

You can actually pour a little acetone to get out the pitch that doesn’t melt out. The only downside is you can’t reuse that same pitch.

I made *most* of the bends to my 6th link arm. I am almost ready to solder the guide block in place, but I still want to try to make a nicer one, first, so that stands in the way. But I am very pleased with how this came out! As with the long Z rod, this stainless steel is super rigid. I think there will be just about zero "squishiness" when these valves are used, with a very direct feel.

This will have one standard hinge pivot and one Minibal on each end. This is the valve end, which had to take this tortuous route to work its way from where it needs to run up and down to where it can get to the valve. To get it over far enough to line up with the stop arm I used the original "doohickey" from the old version of the 5th thumb lever.


Here is the whole rod with the valve-end arm in place and the guide block roughly where it will be.


Here are some other views of my solution to prevent the angled rod from slapping the valves and making a horrible racket. This type of hybrid linkage worked out well for the long Z rod for the right thumb linkage.




The "doohickey" is silver soldered in place, but the hole was a little too large for the rod I used. It took a lot of material to fill the gap, and I did not get it fully filled. The edged of that joint is packed with "buffing dirt" as I did not clean the assembly with denatured alcohol after buffing it. If it doesn't break I'll probably leave it alone. It's tiny and difficult to see when it's installed.

If I think of it (later) that big-headed shoulder screw will be replaced with a steel hinge rod and will have a "washer" on the end with the rod peened over it, like this one on the Z rod of the 5th thumb lever…

^ I like the part that looks like a drilled-through Zippo lighter.

I am a moron. I posted the following in my thread about the Holton 345. It goes in this thread. Sorry.

Trying again in three… two…

_________________________

The new leadpipe is mostly bent. I have a little bit to do at the mouthpiece receiver end, still. It went very well. My MDF/hose clamp bending jigs worked very well. After some messing around with this tomorrow if I am satisfied I'll clean out the pitch and attach some of the hardware and start locating the receiver-to-bell brace and the brace in the center of the bell.

This needed a second hose clamp 2/3 of the way up, but I got one working and wanted to move on. I should have not been lazy as this created a small issue. I also managed to "fudge" the edge of the jig with my jigsaw. I hate using my jigsaw, by the way…


This hose clamp was an old one from my Jeep. It is entirely too thick and stiff, but it was what I had at hand. Oh, well…


Here is how the hose clamp was fitted to the MDF. I could not do it the way I was taught years ago because I could not locate that specific hose clamp style at my FLAPS. I ended up slotting the MDF for the band, then hammering and bending the band until it fit correctly and did not mess up the pipe. The clamped bit was a section I knew would be cut off.


Old and new, with the union press-fit in place and the pipe still filled with pitch. You can see how much different the shape needed to be to remove the very wonky factory assembly I described earlier. (I will repost that illustration so it is now more clear what I was talking about.)




The union now fits correctly because of the bend to the pipe.


Here is why the pipe needed to be bent so much at the big end.


The old location for the center brace socket was preventing me from seeing whether this fit correctly.


Once the old detachable brace socket was removed so the new pipe could lay down where it needed to be; I think that it fits very well. There is a small block between the bell and pipe to simulate where in space the pipe will actually live.

I’m SO ready for this to be done and hear some sound samples!

You and me both, dude. You and me both.

Am I seeing that the Conn receiver is a scant amount too large?

I'm thinking that the brass Yamaha receiver might be slightly smaller in the back (the "tech" guy could measure before you buy), and (at least, to me) I like the looks of the Yamaha (YBB-201/321) receiver a bit more. I don't recall it being pricey.

I have to use what I have at hand, and the Conn and Miraphone receivers are both for 15mm OD pipes. (Or 14.5mm?)

I have an old Mirafone 180 TINY receiver that I very carefully opened up using a 14mm drill bit in a vise, a 13mm steel rod with sandpaper wrapped around it, and a 14mm steel rod that I tapped into the opening. Using a combination of these three operations I got it to fit, albeit a bit tightly. It will go on fine, but removing it will be a PITA. Since I am a "Gap Denier" I never have *any* gap in my receivers, preferring the smooth transition of the old-school leadpipe-as-receiver-with-external-sleeve. (I don't know, but I have never put much stock in placing an intentional "gap" that you adjust having magical effects that cannot be recreated fully through practice.)

Anyway, now that that is fit and I have quadruple-checked that this is the form I want, I just melted out the pitch. Damn, but that crap smells like, well, crap. Or old road projects before "blinkies" existed, when they used "smudge pots" to mark work zones. My carport stinks like someone is having a curb and sidewalk installed by a city crew back in 1969.

Once the pipe is cleaned out fully and I have the ends flat and deburred, I will start putting hardware onto the thing.

I prefer mouthpieces to be close to the beginnings of mouthpipe tubes as well...

1/8" - 1/16" (??) might be close enough, as that doesn't expose very much reverse taper - prior to the beginning of the expansion of the mouthpipe tube.

I also prefer that mouthpiece exit bores not be much smaller than the o.d.'s of the small ends of mouthpieces, so there isn't some huge bump (sudden drop-off/expansion) from the mouthpiece into the instrument.

If you have a friend who does stained glass, a little bit of copper foil (whatever the back insertion overlap is, width-wise) by (often) only one wrap around the small end of the mouthpipe tube will tighten-up and center a barely-loose receiver until it's soldered in place, and also defines far less solder having to be flooded in back there.

I'm thinking a place like this might just give you a small amount of foil...

https://www.hopperglass.net/contact

The leadpipe bent as it will be, forever and ever, amen. (So I hope it is right because I don't want to have to do this again.) I cleaned it out, finished the ends, and soldered on the appropriate half of the union. The receiver I had to use is decent enough and now fits okay, too. I don't like it, so I need to keep working on the fit until it is very easy to remove but does not wobble, so I can more easily change it down the road to something I like better. I did a half-fast buffing job to the union end but left the rest bare as it still needs to be sanded to remove all the "factory crappiness" that raw parts usually have, teture-wise.

This should work well. I will work on getting it installed this weekend and will hopefully have the length adjusted so I can use it for my three upcoming quintet gigs a week from today.

I have to get ready for rehearsal and practice, so time to hit the showers.

Adios, y'all!

The Kurath still does not have the 6th valve hooked up, but it is once again playable. I completed the leadpipe just about two hours ago and have been practicing on the thing ever since.

I like it.

I like it a lot.

The slightly tighter first six inches in the leadpipe really improve a lot of mild weirdness so that I won't have to think about the horn so much when I am playing it.

WIN!

There are lots of small things that could be neatened up or realigned, but it is all quite minor, and you know — prototyping. I will have to take a lot of this stuff down again as I repeatedly re-re-re-work through the details. But I am pretty sure this pipe is a keeper.

Here's the Horn Porn…

Et voila! the finished pipe…


Art of the brace on the bell…


Two thirds of the union between the pipe and the 1st valve…


Half of the bell-to-receiver brace with the 1974 Mirafone 180-5U F tuba receiver, after two hours of careful work to open up the small end to fit this pipe. Necessity is such a mother…


The other third of the union assembly, soldered to the 1st valve knuckle with a small ferrule…


I was about to do a soapy water leak test of the union and its three solder joints. All passed muster…


Man, I still have a ton of work to do, but it is starting to become the horn I have wanted for many years.


As the valve end, it curves upwards and outwards, on a completely different plane than the bell curve. This took some thought, but it came out exactly as I needed it to be.


Now that the upper 5th lever has been worked out the ugly bend in the thumb lever is no longer needed. That's correct: I made nine levers trying to work out all the disparate angles along with the fact that the lever had to drop over 4" to be able to connect with the upper lever (the purpose of that elbow was to be the mounting point for a drop rod toward the bottom end of the casings that would serve as a mount point for a Minibal and rod to the upper lever. So now I can make YET ANOTHER LEVER to take out the silly-looking elbow. Yeesh…


Mary Ann says, "Two hours? Please make him stop playing that damned thing!"

Take stuff apart again to redo it?



Which Mary Ann? The cat or the French horn and tuba player?

Excellent work Sir. I think it is great that you are dialing everything in so that it is EXACTLY as you want it.

I was talking with another teacher about home repair. I said that once a foundation was poured, I could build a house the rest of the way. However, I move way too slow and would too carefully to be anything close to profitable.

I suspect you have a hard time deciding when ‘good enough’ is “good enough”.

York-aholic wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:08 pm … I said that once a foundation was poured, I could build a house the rest of the way. However, I move way too slow and would too carefully to be anything close to profitable.

I suspect you have a hard time deciding when ‘good enough’ is “good enough”.

A room on this house was garbage, poorly manufactured, ill-fitting, and belonging on the back of a house not of this style, quality, or architecture (a cheap glass sunroom on the FRONT of a log house).

As it was collapsing in on itself, there was no choice other than to demolish it and replace it with another log room.

There are no “log house remodelers” (at least, none who [1] are not backed up for years, [2] got out of the industry they moved over to conventional construction, and [3] probably wouldn’t charge at least as much as the cost of building a log house to remodel one (and I would not trust a log house remodeler - were one available), so I designed the room and hired people to help me - when I couldn’t do things by myself.

Anytime anyone used the word “frame“ or “framing“, I made up some nice sounding excuse and fired them. (Of course, for the past several years carpenters and faux-carpenters have been able to find work quickly, so no one suffered.)
Log houses have to be built with every piece of wood within 1/8th to 1/16th of an inch of fitting… basically, the entire house is “furniture“. They’re also stained (with stains more resembling furniture stains – which reveal the grain of the wood), rather than painted (as seen in another thread that I put up)… so words such as “mud“ and “caulk” (materials that can forgive shoddy workmanship) don’t find their way into the log house vernacular very much.
When people could dial in under 1/16 of an inch (using both a level and a speed square, and not just one or the other), they were good helpers. When things needed to be fit absolutely perfectly, I did them completely myself. This included things such as tying the room onto the rest of the house, so as it didn’t look like in addition, and making perfectly level straight super acute angle cuts across the tops of logs so that stacked logs would form a perfect triangle leaving exactly 3/4 of an inch of space above them for 3/4 inch thick tongue-and-groove soffit wood, etc.
(Helpers looked at me like I was crazy when I would insist on nearly dialing things down to nothing for fit, until they saw that anything less Helpers looked at me like I was crazy when I would insist on nearly dialing things down to nothing for fit (as I am accustomed to doing with all instruments – other than those which will immediately be re-destroyed), until they eventually saw that anything less would be a disaster.
——
Wade understands this, and - even if he’s redoing some things three times, he’s ending up with something that will work, rather than that rattles, sticks, or doesn’t work at all.

Form follows function in all cases in my work, but form must also be pleasing, as much as possible. I might redo something simply because, hey, now it works, so let's make it look nice, too. So I will do something over and again until 1.) it works exactly as I had hoped or envisioned, and 2.) it is attractive to *my* aesthetic.

Also, the details of how caps, buttons, water keys, ferrules, levers, &c. look are important to me. Even the look (or condition) of a screw's head matters. No parts go on my horns that do not make me smile unless I have plans to replace that part at a later date when I find what I want. Again, form FOLLOWS function, so the priority is always functionality first, and pimpitude when possible.

Back to the tuba…

I must say that the Vaughan Williams is FAR EASIER on this tuba than it ever was on my little Yamaha 621 F tuba; likewise with the Bydlo. The high F and Ab/G# are just there, whereas on the Yamaha they were not part of the "available palette" for whatever reason. They would not come out. I can get these notes out of my CC tubas just fine, but that 621 had some sort of factory assembly nonsense that caused this, as other 621 F tubas that I have tried seem to be just fine up there.

Before the new leadpipe, the second space C and the F above the staff were both very sharp. The F is now spot-on and that C is still sharp, but seems to be less so, to the point that I can easily lip it down. And the 13 alternate that is dead on has not changed, so I can still use that if I need to.

I have only ever played the Broughton on CC, as the low range of the 621 was too anemic for some of the low lines to clearly project without extra work, so I never learned this piece on the F tuba. This Kurath can play Broughton with ease, and the pitches that will use the new 6th valve are both open, and in tune.

I am quite pleased with my work so far. I can't wait to get the upper levers installed and tweaked so that I can learn to use them when sightreading. (I have retained the 5th thumb lever specifically to allow me a crutch when sightreading in the brass quintet, which we do at gigs on occasion. Once I feel really confident in my ability to use this strictly as a 4R+2L tuba the thumb lever can be removed and the upper 5th linkage can be greatly simplified. Until then it will have to stay overly-complex to allow usage as both a 5- and 6-valved horn.)