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No glut here

Yorkboy wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:21 pmNo glut here

...nope...and those are REAL (B-flat) ones.

Yorkboy wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:21 pmNo glut here

Beautiful!

Mine has a lot of clarity.

Or maybe it's me…?

And unlike about 80% of BAT owners, I actually have a reason to own and use one of these horns. I will always laugh at parents who buy their 17-year-old kid a 6/4 tuba. And after decades of teaching, I can say with 100% accuracy that university-level applied instructors who work to convince incoming freshmen that they *need* one of these to be competitive are "gigless wannabe" frauds.

Yorkboy wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:21 pmNo glut here

Holy!!!

Amen!

The last one that I owned - that was C length, I did about a dozen things to it - and they were all things that took in the direction I wanted it to go to get the sound to be more defined, as well as to offer more "front". Doing all that stuff worked, and everybody that's heard it agreed and their eyes lit up, but it occurred to me that it was sort of silly to do all that when all I had to do is just play my 5/4 size C instrument and get the same type of sound.

The B-flat 6/4 that I finally now have (and I've explained this far too many times, here) offers a really clear/defined (yet very broad) type of sonority right off the "BAT". It's a model that I stumbled across (about a decade ago at the international tuba shindig at Indiana University, or possibly before that...??) but could never afford, because there wasn't ever one for sale (used) until very recently. Were there a low-priced knockoff (with build quality similar to the build quality of that 186 knockoff) the valves and slides would be too distracting to me, even if the sound and intonation were as good.

This (below) was probably the last 6/4 C that I owned...
(The bass trombone guy snapped my picture and tagged me at a KC & The Sunshine Band show, and it showed up today on "fb memories" - which I regularly delete.)

I installed a much smaller mouthpipe (notice: detachable), much smaller tuning slide, much smaller dogleg, and even put a (now) 35-year-old heavy spun brass thing in the bell throat - NOT to make the bell heavier, but to make the bell throat SMALLER. I liked the TYPE of resonance I ended up with, but (again, if C) it's easier to just play a really great and really resonant 5/4...
...OK...not "easier to play" (as a B-flat tuba requires just a bit more effort to operate - given the same size instrument), but "easier to achieve the type of resonance I seek". Just to be really clear, the Miraphone 98 (B-flat) does not produce a (so-called) "dark" sound.

@bloke is this the 2165 that had the really short 6th valve?

LargeTuba wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:53 pm @bloke is this the 2165 that had the really short 6th valve?

Some pretty highfalutin players picked it over other tubas that I owned - hands down, and obviously person who bought it likes it a lot... but - again - everything I did made it sound more like an amplified 5/4. Not being woofy - but also being capable of putting out a tremendous amount of sound, it got me in trouble a couple of times , because I really wasn't aware of how much sound I was putting out.
For stuff like "Fanfare for the Common Man" - and other pieces where it's impossible to put out too much sound - and thump-in-the-chest loud is just right, it was pretty amazing.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:58 pm

LargeTuba wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:53 pm @bloke is this the 2165 that had the really short 6th valve?

Some pretty highfalutin players picked it over other tubas that I owned - hands down, and obviously person who bought it likes it a lot... but - again - everything I did made it sound more like an amplified 5/4. Not being woofy - but also being capable of putting out a tremendous amount of sound, it got me in trouble a couple of times , because I really wasn't aware of how much sound I was putting out.
For stuff like "Fanfare for the Common Man" - and other pieces where it's impossible to put out too much sound - and thump-in-the-chest loud is just right, it was pretty amazing.

If its not too much trouble, I'd be curious to know the full list of mods you made to "dial it in"?

LargeTuba wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:18 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:58 pm

LargeTuba wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:53 pm @bloke is this the 2165 that had the really short 6th valve?

Some pretty highfalutin players picked it over other tubas that I owned - hands down, and obviously person who bought it likes it a lot... but - again - everything I did made it sound more like an amplified 5/4. Not being woofy - but also being capable of putting out a tremendous amount of sound, it got me in trouble a couple of times , because I really wasn't aware of how much sound I was putting out.
For stuff like "Fanfare for the Common Man" - and other pieces where it's impossible to put out too much sound - and thump-in-the-chest loud is just right, it was pretty amazing.

If its not too much trouble, I'd be curious to know the full list of mods you made to "dial it in"?

If I can remember...??

- a 45SLP mouthpipe tube
- a 6450 (SORT OF) main slide (the small side was .5mm larger than 6450 (due to the 5th valve remaining in the same place), and I blew out the small side (half) of the main slide bow to line up with this.
- I put that experimental (I'm thinking) 21.5mm "tuning" 6th valve past the large side of the main slide (It may have been a bit smaller...??), and put a lever for it way up near the #1 slide.
- I installed a 6450 dogleg.
- I believe a inserted some bore spacers inside the upper outside slide tubes, to the point whereby I never pushed that slide in any farther.
- early issue model 2165 "tone ring", but taped in place with double-sided tape, because I just didn't wish to solder it in place.

Always a fascinating conversation. On a lot of levels.

Someone sent me the link to this and asked if I would comment with the equipment myself and many students have been using on the audition circuit… I don’t normally have the time to peruse around on here, but what an interesting thread and several opinions presented!…(I guess there is an *** for every saddle , so here are some of the saddles we like to ride on!)

Students have used: YCB 826, MW 2165’s, MW 6450’s, MW 2000, HB 50, MRP CC, Culbertson Neptune, PT6, PT6P, Thor, modified Thor, Tuono, YFB 821/822, Alex F 155, HB 10, many different MW 45SLP’s, PT 10/16, 4450/4460, 4260, MW 2250 FT, MRP F.

The whole 6/4 York copy-inspired-whatever perennial argument is fascinating to me. And an awful lot of endless discussion here. On other threads, the discussion can be on a completely different topic but then it wanders somehow back to this. Really amazing to me.

I miss the early days of the “university tuba major”, which I was part of (along with many of you of a certain age). Pretty much everyone was playing a Mirafone (spelling intentional, this was the 70’s) 186 or something like it, or maybe a Meinl Weston 20 or 25. BBb like me or CC if you went to one of those universities with certain professors. I don’t recall anybody using the terms 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4 back then. Most tuba players I knew were like me, struggling to be able to afford just one horn, When we selected that horn we wanted it to fulfill all needs. Quintet, wind ensemble, full band, orchestra if need be, jazz band, solos, small ensembles. In fact my teacher encourage me to play just one horn, so that way I could learn it’s playing characteristics well. These horns tuba majors were playing in those days were not large, not small, just medium-ish. A Goldilocks size if you will.

In my opinion, a horn like that SHOULD still be a good choice for most college tuba majors. It’s been said that auditions these days are always won with 6/4 horns. Perhaps true, I don’t know, but what auditions are these? Symphonies? Well, how many college tuba majors are actually going to end up in a major, or even minor, orchestra? Or are we talking about service band auditions? Well, with the exception of the handful of top bands, where symphony orchestra audition standards may apply, your choice of tuba doesn’t give particular advantage. Having gone through the audition process for an Army base band myself, I think they only care about your technical ability, with particular emphasis on sight reading skills. Your choice of personal instrument is moot because they’re going to make you play their horn anyway. I don’t have any statistics to back this up of course, and I don’t know if anyone has ever done a study, but it would not surprise me if most college tuba major end up doing something other than a serious performing career. Teaching public or private school music or even pursuing a career not related to music at all.

Arnold Jacobs sure did cast a long shadow. His influence cannot be overestimated. He started this whole “magic 6/4 York” thing. His students wanted to emulate him, as did the students of his students, and so on. I was aware of Mr. Jacobs when I was an undergrad, of course, but my fellow students and I regarded him and his instrument as unique, and impossible to imitate. But what other explanation could there be for the present glut of 6/4 horns, since they would not be manufactured if there was no demand? The market forces are what drives such things, and the ghost of Arnold Jacobs lives.

So well, ok, what about that (6/4?) Nirschl I played? not only was it EASY to play -- like the NStar -- but certainly not woofy -- a very clear sound. So what is this woofiness about? Not that I EVER would attempt to carry that thing around or even hold it up long term.

I could ask the owner to bring it back and get a recording and see if ya'll still say "woofy."

I think any young musician entering college as a music major on tuba, should come with 2 instruments: a large contrabass and a bass. In most situations, these instruments will serve the student well. IF (and ONLY if) they get far enough, and with encouragement from their instructor/mentor, they are going to pursue the audition route, a 6/4 contra is needed.

After hearing a multitude of students huff and puff their way with 6/4s, I am convinced this is not for everybody.

Respectfully, my 2¢

Are there woofy uncomfortable 6/4 F tubas, too?