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There are two really nice handmade 1960s Miraphone 186 C tubas with five valves offered on this site in the 6,XXX-something dollar price range.
In 1974, I paid about $1,800 for a brand new one with only four valves. Back-adjusted for inflation, the 1974 equivalent price to the $6,XXX 2025 asking price for these instruments in great condition is only about 900 bucks...so right at half of the new prices - just as are the $6XXX prices...

...They're not big fat shiny tubas made in Asia with piston valves, are they?

I really wish these tubas came up for sale in a year or so, instead of now... (For the seller's sake I hope they move well before then). My son will be looking for a good CC for university and I would love to see him end up with one of these instruments. He plays on a BBb 186 now and got very excited when I forwarded him @the elephant's listing. Like his old man he has a penchant for quality vintage instruments.

Luckily @russiantuba has already explained to him why a trendy 6/4 Eastman is a really really bad idea.. so it's not just his dumb parents telling him that most people sound really bad on them, and that he should be looking at more appropriate tubas.

If my chops had come back to life, I’d have definitely jumped on one of these 186s. That’s in addition to having kept the piston horns in my signature around.

My first horn was a 186 in Bb. I’ve owned a 188. One of the best horns I ever played was a 186 in C that was 4v.

Both the 186 and 188 are great horns and have a different tonal palette than the horns I recently owned. For younger players, I think having this at hand is probably a good idea. It affords more flexibility to play in different groups. As they advance, then the other horns can be added. Note: the 4/4 Conn I had was similar but different.

The other thing I’ll add about these older Mirafone tubas is that they (like other handmade horns) will often feel more “alive” when playing them and that adds to the experience.

gocsick wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 8:59 am I really wish these tubas came up for sale in a year or so, instead of now... (For the seller's sake I hope they move well before then). My son will be looking for a good CC for university and I would love to see him end up with one of these instruments. He plays on a BBb 186 now and got very excited when I forwarded him @the elephant's listing. Like his old man he has a penchant for quality vintage instruments.

Luckily @russiantuba has already explained to him why a trendy 6/4 Eastman is a really really bad idea.. so it's not just his dumb parents telling him that most people sound really bad on them, and that he should be looking at more appropriate tubas.

So why not just get it now?

Just had a student who looks like he will be doing his Bachelor’s in Music Education under me purchase a new Miraphone 188CC. I was going to let him try my 1291CC and told him to wait to try more before buying.

He said he tried everything at Buckeye Brass, including the Hagen 6/4 BBb, the Cerveny line, and after playing my horn, he still said the 188CC he has on order he preferred. Even though I haven’t heard him on it, knowing his playing I think it will be a good fit. He has a good ear and knows what he wants in a sound.

It took me a while to learn, but just because a tuba is big and in CC, doesn’t mean it is good or superior.

Mostly, orchestral music originated in central Europe, and - contrabass tuba choice - they're still doing B-flat...and (I'm thinking) still actually - pretty much - required to make that choice.

C tubas (just as with all other American fashions and fads) are now all over the world, (and sure) including central Europe.

With my fairly-new-to-me (a couple of years or so, now) B-flat instruments, they still prompt me to crack an internal smile - when I hear what's coming out of their bells...and/but no: They're not the same as the run-of-the-mill/mostly-only-manufactured-in-order-to-sell-and-not-to-use-for-actually-making-music stuff that I un-smush (re: young scholars' pastimes) week-end and week-out.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 12:26 pm

So why not just get it now?

Finances for one.... I mean they are priced really well.. but we did spend $5K on a BBb 186 two years ago (Granted it is a really really good BBb 186 and my daughter will use it in a few years). Plus there are a bunch of other expenses right now...

Secondly the Professor at the school where we hope he gets in.... the one where I teach so tuition is half price... strongly advises students wait until after they are accepted and then work with him in choosing an appropriate instrument.

But reality it is mostly finances. I count myself very fortunate. My parents were not in a position to buy me an instrument... I always had to use the absolutely broken school instruments.... My at home tuba was a taped together fiberglass King sousaphone... in contrast... I have a comfortable home... no worries about food... or not having a reliable car.. and my spouse was able to choose to stay at home with the kids... my son's summer job will be for pocket money and to pay for gas in the car... not required to contribute to the family grocery bill like mine was.. I am fortunate....but I am definitely not wealthy and $6500 is real money.

I’d have already got Wade’s amazing 186 if I didn’t already have a great early 188 that I’d have to get rid of.

If I had not bought the 494 I'd have been sorely tempted by Wade's tuba too, but getting it here would have been impossible anyway, given he won't ship. I understand that, but also know that getting a properly packed tuba ruined in shipping is actually pretty rare, given the number of instruments that have arrived here perfectly fine. Granted you cannot just throw them in a box, but most of us know that. I would be much less inclined to put one in airline baggage, which I think is a considerably higher risk.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 8:54 am… getting a properly packed tuba ruined in shipping is actually pretty rare…

Eleven times, Mary Ann. This is Mississippi.

Eleven crushed tubas.

When the Canadian Brass appeared with us in 2003, Chuck's famed gold-plated Schilke-built tuba had its bell badly crushed and the hard case partially destroyed, and I had to beg my boss to open the shop for me at 5:00 a.m. so I could fix it for him before our 10:00 a.m. rehearsal.

I am not avoiding shipping tubas, I am avoiding shipping tubas to or from Mississippi. This was via a commercial air carrier, but the results were the same because the local, craptastic attitude was the same.

No one pays attention to me…

Wow. but it was an airline --- every time?
The local carriers here are good, both UPS and Fed Ex. Of course they can't control what happens before it gets here. The only destroyed box I got was the Alex, but the instrument itself was fine. The driver told me "the box was like that when I got it" and also stayed while I opened the box and determined the Alex was ok. Looked like a forklift had reamed it, fortunately just ripping the top. I had Clarion on it ahead of time, not that that would have quieted my soul if I had to collect.
I guess I'll never move to Mississippi, huh? And I guess I'll be careful about getting things shipped from Texas now.
But I have everything I want, so it does not matter.

No. Again, no one listens to me. Ugh…

I have had eleven tubas shipped to or from me that were badly damaged, destroyed, or lost forever. To Mississippi. From Mississippi.

As I wrote in the above post, Mr. Daellenbach's tuba was destroyed here, too, however, it received damage by the baggage handlers here at the Jackson Evers International Airport. My statement was that this can happen very easily here in Mississippi, inbound or outbound, regardless of carrier. Tubas that come into my possession or that leave my possession, therefore, ONLY do so via MY hands directly into or from the hands of the other party.

Many other cities are this bad today. Many. So, the likelihood of this happening is much higher than you know. This is a repeated case of people saying that a problem is not a problem (or is not that bad of one) based on their limited experience with the situation. I used to flip tubas on eBay about 15 years ago. I was a consummately careful packer, and all of my shipments had to be refunded for various reasons, pretty much all of which happened at the point of origin, meaning that—in every case—the damage happened here in Mississippi and not at some other point in the chain. In my various purchases back when I had tubas shipped here, again—in every case—the tuba was lost, damaged, or destroyed here in Mississippi at the destination terminal, regardless of the carrier. GPX, UPS, FedEx, USPS, ABF, and Delta all did this. It is a local attitude that pervades everything, and it is not limited to Mississippi. That F.U. attitude is spreading every day.

Don't ship tubas unless you can afford to lose them. Drive to pick them up or to meet a buyer. If it means enough for you to drop thousands of dollars on it, go get it. Or have it driven to you by the seller. Or set it up so that the buyer and seller meet somewhere.

To all…

The moral of our little story is…

Shipping tubas is an idea that is out of step with the realities of today.

Yours in Perpetual Disbelief,

Cassandra

Also, none of these so-called experts at packing tubas know a damn thing about packing tubas, and - even if tubas are packed as well as anyone could ever hope - the reality is that UPS and FedEx have conveyor belts, common carriers have forklifts, airlines have 15 feet high drop-offs, and the former bus shippers had thieves.

To all:

I have completely given up on shipping anything of value.

I keep shipping cheap crap via Amazon and eBay because it is convenient and affordable, and if the shipping Fs up I am out very little. However, the USPS, FedEx, UPS, eBay/Pitney Bowes, and Amazon shipping have combined to lose — for up to two weeks — packages of mine nine times in the last five months.

Nine times.

Shipping is dreadful now — all of it. If people do not see this severe decline, then they have been lucky, and this luck will end soon enough.

I think I will start signing all my posts as the "great unbelieved one".

Yours,

Cassandra

I'm convinced, that 99.9% of those working in shipping, were born, raised in Chillicothe, Ohio.

Also, if Wade is going to change his name, it should be Shirley.

I don´t get it.
Shipping / mailing / spedition of goods is one of the rare instances where private sector economics should be doing its thing.
Which is supposed to be:

- Promise services to be performed well, quickly, or cheaply.
- Have customers pick a combination of any two of these virtues.
- DECLINE to promise to fulfill all three of those at the same time.
- Keep your promises and stay in business with real, common-sense customers.

In THEORY, stupid contractors who TRY and trick their customers into believing they can get good AND fast AND cheap at the same time, will end up with customers stupid enough to believe them.
Which, IN THEORY, leaves above-mentioned real, common-sense customers with YOU, the real, common-sense contractor, keeping everybody happy.

But MAYBE (just MAYBE) this is THE utopian concept of a free market under capitalism.
Makes complete sense and would be a wonderful situation, didn´t it inevitably crash on the rocks of human nature.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 7:24 pm Also, none of these so-called experts at packing tubas know a damn thing about packing tubas, and - even if tubas are packed as well as anyone could ever hope - the reality is that UPS and FedEx have conveyor belts, common carriers have forklifts, airlines have 15 feet high drop-offs, and the former bus shippers had thieves.

I ordered a cheap but decent 3 valve detachable bell King off ebay a few months ago for a good price from a reputable seller. The 19" upright bell was sent in a box three times the size of the bell with probably several rolls of bubble wrap. The body was sent with 1 layer of cardboard wrapped around it and right up against the bell collar, leaving a circular imprint on the inside of the cardboard. Very little bubble wrap around the body, yet filled inside the tuba (?) No fragile markings on the box. The body was dropped so hard it accordioned the bell stack and broke most braces loose. After two months going in circles with the seller and shipper, I have resigned myself to accepting it as it is, since it does play well enough for a sub $500 tuba including tax and shipping. Maybe when I have the spare time and cash, I will take it to the Tennessee master of straightening out bent tubas.

Oh yeah, 60s and 70s Mirafphfones have a certain magic about them the later horns just don't have.