iPad revisited

[bloke]

I just finished another orchestra so-called Masterworks series on Saturday night. I didn't say a word about iPads to anyone. One of the section trombone players - who's also a principal trombonist in a full-time orchestra whereas his wife is also a full-time string player and the same full-time Orchestra - came up to me and said basically this:
What's all this iPad stuff? My wife is having to share the stand with someone who's using an ipad. The page is really small, she's (her stand partner, who's actually first seat in the pair, but is having to operate the iPad, because it's her own iPad) having to touch stuff the top of the page to move things around, sometimes she misses touching the button at the top of the page, and the whole thing goes back to the index, another piece of music, or something like that, there's no looking forward at the next ~entire~ page during a series of rests to remind oneself what's coming up. To me, it's a technology too far. I just don't understand the purpose of it.

...to which I added:
Yes, with paper music, we use stand lights, but when stand lights fall on the floor and break, we've probably only lost either $3 for a incandescent bulb or $25 for an LED newfangled stand light.
Admittedly, my music to Don Juan was a new addition which was one of those crappy undersized editions, but I blew it up larger at home, and I also copied page two - so I wouldn't have to turn the page. I was much happier with what I did - which cost me about a dime (??) - than I would have been with a just as small scan of this crappy edition reading it off of an iPad.

It was interesting to encounter someone who views this phenomenon in the very same way I do, in that the use of this iPad stuff has no advantage, and that it's only being done because it can be done, rather than because it should be done.

[BramJ]

The issues described (except for the price of possible damage) sound like user error to be honest, either not using a dedicated sheet music app or simply not knowing how to use it.

Often with 'new things', the 'new thing' is blamed and not the one using it that didn't spend time learning how to use it properly

[bloke]

Yes those are user error, but there's very little user error with a piece of paper, and pencils are pretty compatible with paper.

I did forget this other detail. I knew I'd forgotten something and (you're just going to have to believe me) this is not made up:

One of the other trombone players does use an iPad, turned his on and couldn't get anything but a bunch of network error stuff and a list of diagnostics.
He went to the librarian and - fortunately - there was a folder made up for him with the paper parts in it which he used this week.

I don't know if he sounded as good playing off of paper, but maybe he did.

Something else about this trombone player - who does use an iPad every time we get together: in the back of his car is this huge honking stand with this big gooseneck on it which is especially made for holding an iPad. It takes up as much space back there as when I bring both my tuba and my contrabass trombone / cimbasso to a gig

If an iPad were as big as a piece of (old school engraved music) paper, unbreakable, no more than 50 bucks, foolproof, and somehow didn't require recharging a battery ever, it would be as good as paper... other than the 50 bucks.

I guess they're fine for at home, other than to hook other media to them you have to rely on Bluetooth and stuff like that rather than just plugging in other media into 1/8 in female plug. I'd rather use my laptop at home and paper on the gig, because I don't like screw-ups and I don't like spending several hundred dollars for the latest thing that doesn't do as much as the thing I already have that cost me $150. As much as I understand them, a tablet is either an inadequate laptop or a clunky phone.

[BramJ]

I am not a professional musician, I play with multiple groups and there is no librarian to ask (there is one, but he is also supposed to be playing) if they have all the music for me, I have like 500 pieces on my tablet (12", and I crop the scanned music so that I don't have the white margins, which are generally quite large on sheet music) and I can get them all in an instance.

Soon we are doing a concert which was cancelled in covid times, I had my setlist and music with all markings from back then available in a few seconds. Often it is not fully clear what we will be rehearsing and the director asks to get an piece from some time ago, again, I have it it in a few seconds and the rest of the band is searching their large stacks of paper.

Having used technology a lot in my life and making my living in looking for problems and how to prevent them; I am still careful, if we have a concert I always have a paper copy on standby. I can just print right from the app (with my markings included) instead of the original PDF's. Never had to use it, but its good to have a backup (and of of those simple K&M wire stands in my bag ;) )

For me it really helps keeping everything organized. Not trying to convince you, everyone should do as they please, just showing my use-case (for the last 10 years)

As much as I understand them, a tablet is either an inadequate laptop or a clunky phone.

and that's completely true

[gocsick]

I agree with @bloke in that I would rather play off paper.. however I think this discussion really only pertains to playing set programs with a relatively small number of pieces in an indoor space... like an orchestra or wind band.

For the me the iPad is a lifesaver. The primary group I play in has a library of well over 100 charts... that rotate regularly... and at a good number off gigs we call an audible and change the setlist on the fly. Depending on who is available for an night, I could also end up covering trombone 3/bass bone/low brass parts or bari sax parts on sousa (if we have enough bass but are short on bones/saxes). So I get to replace huge library binders and a few real books, not to mention a stand big and study enough to hold an open big binder.... plus a light if we are playing at night.. with a small electronic device that can be controlled hands free with a footpedal or ring , has a built in light, and can send parts across to other players in the group without messing up organization (or the need to get my sheets back).

Yes, it is a bit smaller... Yes, it is one more thing I have to manage and make sure it is charged and in working order before any rehearsal or gig.... but is it any different than making sure our instruments are in a play ready state before showing up for a gig? If my iPad isn't functioning it is the same level of screw up as showing up without a mouthpiece. Fingers crossed and knock on wood.. but so far I have managed to make sure I actually have what I need.

[sdloveless]

I have a Chromebook with a 14" screen. The keyboard flips all the way around to turn it into a sorta kinda tablet. Most currently supported Chromebooks will also run Android programs. I'm currently using an application called Mobile Sheets for my daily practice routine and for the community band. Most of the sheet music I've acquired in recent years has been in digital format anyway, so it's easy to just display it on the Chromebook. I've scanned in some music, as well. The 14" screen means it's mostly life-sized. My eyes, even with correction, don't really tolerate small screens.

Overall, I find it much more useful than a tablet. Plus, the Mobile Sheets app seems to work just fine without a network connection if the music is stored locally. I'm sure there are other apps. I just haven't tried them.

All that said, I also bring the printed sheet music to rehearsals...just in case.

[bloke]

I can see the "outdoors" argument...but music stands get blown over (wind gusts, etc.) and regardless with either iPads on them or paper on them, regardless of the stoutness of the stand, and - yes - I've even seen "indoor"-style stands (with cinder blocks on their bases) get blown over...as (I'd wager) most of us have.

four-pagers (outdoors)...yeah...I copy and tape, and then the ensemble's library has (at least) the tuba part ready for the next "a technology too far - as well as $500 too far, in their opinion" old curmudgeon.

[York-aholic]

I have a solution (maybe even THE solution):


Wait for it


For those that want to use an iPad/tablet/Chomebook, please do so.

For those that don't want to use one, please do not.

I bought a used iPad pro (larger) that I use for one group that has about 120 pieces that get pulled up in seemingly random order (the tuba parts are almost exclusively single pages). For all other groups I use (and prefer) paper.



I hope that helps.

[C J]

I like to read of an E book, thats my preference and my preference only. I know I will never ever go back to paper.
The ease of having the complete library with me, easy to make notes (and erase them again) and lightness of the reader does it for me.

As stated before, I am a amateur. When I play with one of the local symphony orchestra's there is a big chance you get a part with sombody else his notes, and what a lovely notes they are: fingerings for b flat.
I wish everybody would use a digital device so everybody gets clean parts.
It did cost some money, but hey I'm an amateur, it's my hobby, hobby's costs money.

We can always discuss laqued pistons versus raw rotors

[bloke]

pdfs (or whatever they are) on iPads are often scans of old parts pulled out of parts sets...with pencil marks (and/or erasures) on them.

Some of the parts that I've had to read had E-flat tuba fingerings red-penciled in.

When too distracting, I handed them back to the librarian who cleaned them up.
That's part of what librarians do.

[tubatodd]

I work in technology for a living and have for nearly 20 years. I sit in front of a screen and write code for a living. On Thursday night's I play electric bass with a 17-piece big band. We have binders with 175 tunes in them. Yes.....a big ass binder with plastic sheets and physical paper. The piano player has multiple such binders he navigates through. We use pencils and highlighters. I've never performed with an iPad, even though I own one. I honestly couldn't imagine using anything but paper for music. I could see where an iPad IS more convenient (ie same foot print for N number of songs and self illumination) in certain situations. I will stick with paper.

(Over-the-hill man yells at cloud!)

[bloke]

bass with a 17-piece big band

great post (and not just because you and I agree...)

subtopic: BIG BAND

For me playing bass in a "big band" requires a ton of discipline...because I know most of the "songs" (not "arrangements", but "songs") and I have a tendency to (simply) PLAY and NOT look at the charts...but then there's some "cute" little bridge or transition or specially-arranged key change or coda/tag, etc...and I have to scramble to find where THEY are in "the chart".

[UncleBeer]

For jazz & dixie gigs, tablets are invaluable. There's just too many obscure tunes that so-and-so really wants to play, and paper just wouldn't really work in this situation. Plus, as opposed to classical gigs, the next tune is just seconds away, so zipping through the alphabet on a tablet is a breeze.

[tubatodd]

bass with a 17-piece big band

great post (and not just because you and I agree...)

subtopic: BIG BAND

For me playing bass in a "big band" requires a ton of discipline...because I know most of the "songs" (not "arrangements", but "songs") and I have a tendency to (simply) PLAY and NOT look at the charts...but then there's some "cute" little bridge or transition or specially-arranged key change or coda/tag, etc...and I have to scramble to find where THEY are in "the chart".

What's awful is I'm the opposite of most bass players I hear of. They have tunes memorized (or at least know the changes) where as I really need the charts written out. It's not that I can't memorize that stuff. It's just not what I am asked to do. If I didn't have my book, there would be no rehearsal/performance. But you're right. Unless everyone is playing out of a Real/Fake book, charts for big band are mostly like an orchestral experience where you are playing the arrangement and not the tune.

Side note: I studied tuba in college. I took 1 jazz improvisation (Steve Brown would kill you if you called it "improv") class and played bass in the school Klezmer band for a year. Then I went on a 10+ year bass hideous. Then one day out of the blue one of my tuba player buds said "hey you want a bass gig?" Twelve years later, I've had a great time playing bass.....and amassing more basses than I know what to do with.

[tubatodd]

For jazz & dixie gigs, tablets are invaluable. There's just too many obscure tunes that so-and-so really wants to play, and paper just wouldn't really work in this situation. Plus, as opposed to classical gigs, the next tune is just seconds away, so zipping through the alphabet on a tablet is a breeze.

That's true. I did a sub gig once and a couple of the tunes just said "fake" and I wasn't told ahead of time that I needed a Real or Fake book so I didn't bring one. So someone shuffled a book down to me so I would have the tune in front of me. Those tunes.....weren't great....especially when they were like "we do this one in Ab" and the tune in the book was in F or something. Ugh!

[gocsick]

That's true. I did a sub gig once and a couple of the tunes just said "fake" and I wasn't told ahead of time that I needed a Real or Fake book so I didn't bring one. So someone shuffled a book down to me so I would have the tune in front of me. Those tunes.....weren't great....especially when they were like "we do this one in Ab" and the tune in the book was in F or something. Ugh!

There is a great app I use, called iReal Pro for chord progressions for jazz and Dixieland gigs. It just gives you the chords and timings, like a real book without the melody line. Perfect for walking a baseline. It supports on the fly transposing... great for when a vocalists at Jazz jams can't sing something in the written key and asks for it in something nasty with lots of sharps. I must have the progressions for thousands of pop, jazz standards, trad jazz, and Dixieland charts saved.

I think it was originally invented to help people learn and improvise over standards.. it will play a simple baseline over the chord progression and adds a drum track so you can play along for the melody and solos... while having a good tonal reference to the chord progression.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

...I just don't understand the purpose of it.

Just because you don't understand the purpose of it, doesn't mean there isn't one.

...in that the use of this iPad stuff has no advantage, and that it's only being done because it can be done, rather than because it should be done.

This is clearly a lie, as you've been told many times before the various advantages of tablets. You just chose to ignore them (as you do the various downsides of music).

[bloke]

The primary purpose of this thread was to see if one personality is still hanging around. I see that they are.
Admittedly its somewhat entertaining, though I'm not sure if (as the only time someone posts, it's after spending weeks of daily checking on one participant's particular posts to see if there's anything with which to attempt to open up some sort of war of words) I should be chuckling or (as with my paranoid-schizo middle-aged relative - who I am obligated to care for) be concerned.

========================================

(addressing the sane) Everything I related in this thread is the truth, including my sensible/practical principal trombone player friend and his string player wife (who is an orchestra librarian, btw) chuckling at the people who view tablets on their music stands as absolutely superior to paper (ref. paper: no cost, no technology, no consumption of fossil fuels - once manufactured, no radiation, no fire risk, no crashing, durable, user-repairable).

I see Unc's point, about some gigantic big-band (or dixie-band) book being condensed down to a thin (albeit fragile) appliance, but - when I play big band jobs (though there's still the problem of them being shrunk way down in size - were it that someone spent weeks scanning all those charts and uploading them to a set of 18 tablets), the next sets' tunes are always called on breaks - at which time the players pull those tunes (leaving the massive collections under their seats, and - with small combo jobs (at least, mine) the leaders typically pre-email a tune list, there really aren't any lead sheets, and - if anyone in the small combo doesn't know one or more of the tunes on the list - they research youtube prior to the gig...
...sure: very much "it's either this-way-or-no-way" stuff (just one set of examples: Wilbur de Paris very arranged tunes such as "Martinique", "Wrought Iron Rag", "Très Moutarde", etc.) is probably best left to bands which actually rehearse and concertize.

[gocsick]

As much as I hate to admit it @bloke for have s point about scanning in paper charts and scores. I hate having to read scanned music on the tablet.

One of the members of our group is a talented arranger and does all of our arrangements. For the few older charts in our library the he has re-engraved then all in Finale. He actually makes a good chunk of his income as an arranger for matching bands, drum corps, brass band etc... He also does lots of side work as an engraver as well. So all of our music is in a native digital format to begin with. He shares the PDFs but also the Finale files so you can alter the layout of your parts to fit your device if necessary.

[Schlitzz]

I like cheese.