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I'm already hearing Tariff horror stories, but none involving tubas. Wessex ships from England. Will U.S. Customs go through a Wessex or Eastman shipment, to see where the horn originated? Will this be a death-knell of Chinese tuba sales in the U.S.?

I'm glad to take the bait.

All countries - including China - are going to make deals and will agree to drop-or-lower their longstanding tariffs (and outright import bans) against the United States, in exchange for the United States (finally, after decades) establishing retaliatory tariffs and - subsequently, after negotiation - agreeing to drop them.

I believe I read that China and American officials are already involved in negotiations in Switzerland. Obviously, negotiating with China is going to be the toughest, because they export so much to the United States, and the Chinese economy is in such bad shape, particularly as so much of the Chinese economy is a synthetic/false economy, whereby so many people there are given busy work to do (such as building complete totally unoccupied cities, untraveled roads, and other things) simply to keep them occupied, with an income, and to discourage them from rioting in the streets (very similar to FDR's various three-letter programs during the depression).

I would personally encourage everyone to turn off the (panic-promoting) so-called "news", and that refers equally to left-wing "news" and right-wing "news". The goal of "news" is for the serf class to continuously be an emotion-motivated rather than a reason-motivated herd of livestock, in order to strengthen/promote feudalism (lords controlling serfs).

Back to the main question, everyone here knows that I sell some of that stuff, and I'm shrugging my shoulders... Admittedly, I do all sorts of different things which I cobble together into a so-called "income", and - for my entire life - have eschewed having a "job" whereby nearby all of my income not only would have come from one source, but also would have depended on someone (other than myself, ie. a non-"ally") to provide it.

... I do believe that deciding to finally fight back against the economic war (that has been waged against the United States so long) - rather than continuing to pretend that it doesn't exist - is really instructive, because finally Americans have been shown that there really are no such things as so "allies", whereas other countries are only "friends" of the United States when the United States gives and does a bunch of stuff to/for such countries and buys bunch of their stuff - without them allowing their people to buy American products.

... When all of us were little kids, we learned about other little kids who really weren't our friends ("allies") unless we did things for them and gave them things, but - for some reason - it didn't transfer to the international level in our minds as we grew into adulthood, particularly (again) and so many of us allow are brains to soak up "news" - as if our brains are nothing more than sponges, and seemingly incapable of analytical thought.

...a whole bunch of rhetoric to express this simple message:

Chill. It isn't going to last, but - even if it does - I have no personal desire to acquire any of the specific products you listed...but also - personally speaking - I really don't buy all that much brand new stuff, period...and this even includes products when consumables all the way down to and including shirts, trousers, suits, and shoes.

A top notch repairman in NYC just took a big hit on an instrument from Europe....due to tariffs...

I just bought a significant shipment of tuba parts from central Europe (several thousand dollars worth), was quoted on those parts before tariffs were even discussed, and paid the exact amount (a week ago) I was quoted (pre-tariff era).

I'm sure our various stories can end up being just as anecdotal as is (again) the "news".

barry grrr-ero wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 3:51 pm I'm already hearing Tariff horror stories, but none involving tubas. Wessex ships from England. Will U.S. Customs go through a Wessex or Eastman shipment, to see where the horn originated? Will this be a death-knell of Chinese tuba sales in the U.S.?

Tariff applies to country of origin and not country of export. Do you seriously think this back door to go around tariffs would not have been thought of before? There are various ways of determining this and serious trouble for someone like Wessex if they were to attempt some type of subterfuge to slip them in.

I watched a video of the FED chairman who is obviously very distressed that overall inflation is down over the last two months (in spite of tariffs).

I think music stores need Chinese instruments, but I'm not sure who else does.

Just got this email from Wessex (May 12, 2025). I did not receive any emails from them before about prices. But even after 15% off prices still look higher for some tubas then before tariffs.

“ U.S. Price Reduction:
15% off previous prices.
We are pleased to announce that due to recent currency and financial changes we are able to reduce our prices by 15%.
This will last at least until the end of May.”

JP is asking for 15% (dealer cost) additional on items shipped from China to the warehouse post-Tariff...

I'm trying to absorb a bit of that in my (already modest, as some know) markup.

To Mr. or Ms. Tofu: "Do you seriously think this back door to go around tariffs would not have been thought of before?" . . . . Well, excuse me. I don't know what to think, which is why I'm asking this wonderful panel of experts. I don't recall ever having dealt with tariffs before. One horror story I heard was very real, and not a fabrication of the liberal press, or anybody's press. A friend of mine ordered some audio equipment from a company in Germany. He made the order before the tariffs had kicked in. The equipment was made in China. When it arrived in the U.S., he received a letter or e-mail from Customs (or whomever) saying that he had to pay an amount that was GREATER than the purchase price of the equipment. I assume that this was at Trump's 135% (whatever it was), and not at the now reduced 30%. Anyway, he told them to send it back.

To Mr. Bloke: It's not a question of panicking. Since I'm not a pro, my tuba life isn't worth panicking over. The issue is that there is a specific Wessex model I would like to own, but I can't afford to pay expensive tariffs on top of the purchase price. If I could, I'd be stepping up to the newish Yamaha 623 CC, or the even newer B&S 795 CC. I get it that this is about 'trade wars' (there's a John Williams parody there somewhere). I'm just honest enough to admit I need the lowest prices possible.

I'm yawning. There's been a worldwide trade war against the United States for decades. With the United States is finally fighting back, whatever. Apparently, the United States is waking up.
Tariffs are obviously an excellent idea and an excellent thing to do. Otherwise all the other countries wouldn't have been tariffing the living crap out of the United States since forever.
It's time to quit doing stuff and giving stuff to other countries so they'll like us. They don't like us anymore than we like them. I don't like countries, and not even my own in particular. I only like individuals (or I don't).

China in particular?
It's rulers have both been shrewd while - at the same time - painting themselves into a corner (via determination to hold on to absolute power).
Their economy is built on making everything that the entire world buys, but that's still not enough to keep a billion people busy, and that's the elephant in the room.
Their power is built on giving everyone either an actual job or a quasi job, so that everyone has some place to sleep at night, something to wear, something to eat, and hopefully some heat in the winter. With a billion people, they've had to pay people to do all sorts of things that aren't needed (a whole lot like our own government does, but to an even more extreme extent). They build cities where no one lives, and roads that go to places that are in the middle of nowhere, simply to keep people busy. A billion people rioting would be quite a thing, and anyone with any official title would surely end up with their head lopped off.

Do like me...a "pro': Buy used.
The last new tuba I bought was in 1984. I paid too much, and it was a poor example of the model.

I have never ever bought a new car, just For what It's worth.

As far as the Jinbao thing, or the Wiseman thing or the Japan thing you're interested in, have you put an ad in the "wanted to buy" section of this website? With any new models, there's usually some pretty heavy turnover early on. ... exciting rhetoric... pretty pictures... sometimes: impressive demo videos

This is only one blue collar tuba player's opinion, but...
I've repaired and played a 795. It looks like a 995, but it isn't.
I've also played a 995. It looks like a vintage handmade Nirschl, but it isn't.

I'm sorry I make you yawn. I didn't want to make this a 'political' thing, but it ended up being that. I wanted to know about tariffs today, as it effects buying new tubas. Nothing more. But now that it has gone down that rabbit hole, I think you know I really don't share your overall view on politics, in general. I agree with some of your points. Let's just leave it at that. At this point, I'm sorry I even brought the question up. It wasn't intended to spark political controversy, or be an invitation for anyone's "boo, hoo".

You make me chuckle.

You specifically choose to discuss tariffs and then apologize that the thread (which was immediately political via the leading word in your subject line) "became" political.

If you didn't want people talking about tariffs, wouldn't you really have just mentioned those three models of it tubas and asked if anyone had one for sale or if someone saw a really good advertised price for one of them?

I like you just fine - and have for a long time, but let's not play pretend.

Thinking back, I've actually bought four new instruments.
The first one was a four-valve 186c which was gray market because it had no serial number and was engraved p h o n e in 1974 and not bought from the California importer/distributor. It was a dog with a really flat open G and a really flat open E. I shouldn't have bought it. 3 years later, Wichita Band Instrument Company started going national with their ads and was selling Miraphone tubas at a very low markup, I bought a 184 for something like $1,400. That one featured just as many intonation quirks, but just different. I got some mileage out of that instrument, though. The third one that I bought new is the gold brass model 188 that I previously mentioned which was undoubtedly the worst 188 that I've ever played. I've played some remarkably good ones since then as other people report as well. It's a consistently good model. It featured the unusual left hand fifth valve thumb trigger that Mr Bobo had on most all of his instruments as well as a left hand lever for the 5th valve itself. I sort of suspect that it was built for him, but he must have rejected it and rightfully so. I bought it straight from the importer in California for a reduced price which was still a lot of money. It was sort of thuddy sounding and had a second valve that would stick from the very beginning until the day I sold it. In 1982, I bought a new six valve B&S F tuba that a German professional player brought over from Europe to sell to me and left in his parents house in Baltimore for me to pick up. With that one, I finally hit the jackpot, but after that, I sort of wised up and quit buying new. I only have bought used, and only have tried before I bought, instead of ordering things. Like Wade, I've driven pretty far distances to test instruments before I purchased them, it never takes more than about a five or ten minute test to figure out whether I want to buy something or not.

barry grrr-ero wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 6:47 pm I don't know what to think, which is why I'm asking this wonderful panel of experts. I don't recall ever having dealt with tariffs before.

I admit I was surprised. I haven't dealt with tariffs per se, but I have deal with customs (Portugal, possibly as bad as it gets), and I don't recall the question of country of manufacture coming up. But that's about a different scale of import, where people mail junk to each other across trade borders. Apparently with more formally regulated commerce it's feasible for customs to deal with that question. So, OK, Wessex has to deal with US China tariffs even if the country of immediate origin is the UK. You and I learned something, despite all the tuba bro blabber.

This has been a very interesting discussion. And it hadn’t been derailed by “politics”. Kudos to all for keeping it practical, as in “how much more will I actually have to pay?”

Joe, as usual, brings up several excellent points, from the viewpoint of being in the “biz”. And as a pro, he advises buying used. My problem when it comes to that is, I HATE dents! Just try to buy a used instrument that the previous owner kept dent free! I know others will ridicule me for this particular viewpoint, but so be it. I get tired of reading ads for used tubas that read something like this: “dents, dings, scratches, scuffs, etc. as can be expected on a used tuba. But it really looks good considering its age, and there’s nothing that affects the tone or operation of this fine instrument!”

Pretty much the only way to buy an instrument without dents is to buy new.

I have bought 4 tubas in my life, as follows:

1. Meinl Weston model 25- bought used. Played nicely but had somewhat noisy valves and a good number of dents. Got me through my undergraduate degree. Eventually sold.
2. Amati (made by Cerveny) 481- bought brand new. Played for many years, got me through master’s degree and beyond. Eventually sold, with lacquer flaws but no dents!
3. King 2341- bought as a demo/show horn. Technically used but looked brand new. Dent free. My “comeback” horn. Still have it, very happy with it. In the past 5 years it has picked up one small dent. Eventually I will have it taken out!
4. Kanstul 903-B- my “little” horn. Bought used. Lacquer issues and only 1 tiny dent. I use this when I’m too lazy to drag the King to rehearsal.

So I am in a happy place right now with my tubas. Especially the King. I would advise people to seek out these “demo/show/B stock” horns as a way to buy “new” at “used” prices.

As to the tariffs, and the Chinese made tubas- based only on my admittedly limited experience: there is a certain brand, made in China, which has become the “darling” of the tuba world. Their products are very well regarded, and they make a lot of “professional grade” tubas. Through a carefully orchestrated marketing strategy, they have assembled an impressive stable of college level tuba instructors to endorse their products and become their “artists”. I believe everyone here knows what brand I’m speaking of. And rather than fitting the stereotype of the “cheap” Chinese tuba, their products have gradually become more expensive through the years, until the present day, where their products are just as expensive if not more than any other brand out there. They obviously feel their “reputation” justifies these prices. And the tariffs will inevitably make the prices even higher. But people will still want to buy them, based on their reputation.

Now, this particular Chinese manufacturer has a copy (ripoff?) of my King 2341. Some will say that their version of this design is an “improvement” over the original version. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? But I own the original, and I spent less than half of what the Chinese one costs. So I feel pretty good about that.

I apologize for the rambling nature of this post. But to repeat the main point I wanted to get across, I think demo horns/show horns/B stock horns are a source of lower priced good quality instruments that many ignore. And yes, I predict your beloved imported instruments will become more expensive in the not too distant future.

I think we are allowed to say "Eastman" on here.

@DonO. makes an excellent point about demo horns. I got my 832 CC as a demo horn from Dillon back in 2022 and ended up paying out the door something like $5k.

As someone who owns a bunch of German, American, British, and Czech tubas and also owned the Eastman for two years, I think their reputation, cultivated by said marketing strategy, is deserved despite being the "tuba-du-jour" of the college crowd lately. Their pro stuff is well-made, IMO better than modern Conn-Selmer stuff. I had no qualms. Just my opinion, of course.

dents:

The most dented tuba I ever bought (which I currently own) is the B-flat 32" Holton (which I converted from 3V top to 5-valve side). I cost $400, and was wadded into a ball...THOUGH I played it (with 3 valves, all the dents, creases, and cobwebs, and on EVERY PIECE) the same day I received it - on a brass quintet recital...
yes, really.

The silver and tricked out 186C that I eventually sold was sorta rough, but never re-lacquered, so all of its metal is there (post-restoration).

The 5450 I bought featured a few small dents, but/and the valves didn't work at all. Later, most who played it remarked, "I didn't know tuba valves could be like this!" (in a good way).

Fat Bastard has two ping dents in the upper bow cap. It's quite a thick cap and "spans" (doesn't fit flush against) the upper bow, so those aren't really removable without inertia/solder-pulling them, and I can live with them. As the cap spans the bow, the dents aren't in the tuba's bore anyway, so...

real life: We're eventually going to have accidents with our tubas. Cello and bass players only scuff their varnish upon impact, and can touch it up - whereby others (if they notice those places) assume their instruments are a century old (not) and someone else made those marks.

tariffs:
Whatever. I've already said what everyone knows. Politics and economics are intertwined. If you bring up pricing/economics/laws, (dammit ) YOU are initiating a POLITICAL discussion.

Dear Joe Sellmansberger. I make you "chuckle". That's the most insulting thing anybody has said to me in a long, long time. I came here to ask about tariffs as they exist today, as I've never experienced them before - not because I wanted to engage in a political debate. You literally put words in my mouth. I'm old enough now that I probably won't be doing much in the way of buying tubas; mouthpieces, or getting expensive 'hacks' done on instruments. But I certainly won't be coming to you any longer, or recommend you to anybody. You really you have a lot of gall to believe that it's OK to insult clients. Is business really THAT good? Do you bring up politics with all your clients? I was considering buying one of your new single body symphony mouthpieces (whatever you named them), but forget it. I'm actually fairly set with m.p.'s anyway, but I was quite curious about that one. No more.

Barry Guerrero

It's your "choice" to take whatever anyone says as an insult.
Everything posted by me in this thread is - simply - matter-of-fact.
There has not been a SINGLE thread involving economics - in this or the other tuba-chat thing that didn't start out (and end up) as a politically-oriented post.
As there are no such things allowed (anywhere) as "free markets", which is the reason why ALL economics are political - whether it involves the supply side, the demand side, or the (money-printing) Keynesian aspects.

Bluntness isn't necessarily (and really doesn't need to be interpreted as) insulting, but - with a blunt-talking truth-teller sucking up a ton of media bandwidth - it's pretty obvious that many people are offended by plainspoken truth.

Rather than being offended that your comments made me laugh just a bit, you should (maybe?) view it as a compliment that I'm being candid with you - rather than patronizing you.

re: tiptoeing around people (who are offended by truth or plain talk)
I've never had (and have purposely never sought) a "job". Guess why?

"I don't like what you think/know/say, so I'm not going to buy your stuff - which I've never bought."

Welcome to the club.

(Expect p.m.'s from fellow clubmembers.)

I am on the exact opposite end of the political spectrum as Joe... I think we are so different that we've actually looped back around and we actually seem agree on 95% of the issues... we just seem to disagree on how to fix the problems...

Personally I think history has shown us that tariffs are largely ineffective and have often exasperated problems rather than fixed them... (Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act anyone.... rewatch Ferris Bueller"s Day Off).

I honestly don't think it is going to be a long term issue. Once our corporate overlords lose enough money they will push both sides hard for a deal. The same corporations donate equally to the Dems and republications.. I might be putting on my tin foil hat but I think the whole ineptitude of the Democratic party is simply bought and paid for... same as the rage bait nonsense our Republican politicians spew out. No one who can get into a position of power is actually that stupid. Douglas Adams said it best when he said the purpose of the (galactic) president wasnt to wield power but to distract from it. Neither party works for us and every politician works for themselves.... and of there is one things politicians and CEOs hate... it is being poor. Once tariffs cost the rich real money everyone will magically figure this crap out.

Regardless of the tarrifs.... the price of Chinese Tubas was going to go up. The cost of doing business in China is going up big time.. labor and environmental costs are going up... the low cost of exports was heavily subsidized by the government.... Another country will step up... maybe India.. maybe someone else. At one point Japan made the good cheap instruments.... who remembers Weril in Brazil?... then China.. In 10 years Jinbao could be the late 80s early 90s Yamaha. We will all lament that band directors buy the Jinbao 186 clone instead of the much better Yamaha 641 and they might replace Yamaha on the DCI circuit the same way that Yamaha replaced King.