Larger Bore, Shallower Mouthpiece

[Stryk]

Many larger bore horns have less intonation issues with slightly shallower mouthpieces. Discuss....

[Stryk]

I will start: The 186 I bought seemed to have some very quirky pitch issues, and I thought there was something wrong with it. I started playing with different mouthpieces, and settled on a Blokepiece Solo. With that slightly shallower mouthpiece, I have no adult fingerings or major slide pulling. Perhaps that is why they cam from the factory with a slightly shallower than normal C4 mouthpiece. If you look at old Alexander mouthpieces, they are EXTREMELY shallow with a flat cup. YMMV

[donn]

What's the throat diameter, on those old Alexander mouthpieces?

I've never noticed any effect on intonation, from a mouthpiece, but my theory in general is that we ascribe differences like that to volume or width because that's what we can see, not because that's what really makes the difference.

[jtm]

A 186 is large bore?

[Stryk]

A 186 is large bore?

LargER compared to most American horns.

[bloke]

' no fewer issues, but shallow cups make it easier to lip the pitch higher, when they are flat...and most extra-large-bore tubas' pitch issues are FLAT pitch issues.

Something else:
The larger the valveset bore size, the less DIFFERENCE in the qualities of the resonance a different-shaped mouthpiece cup makes.

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

[Doc]

A 186 is large bore?

0.772" or 19.6mm
That's not small, but it's not that large.

With my 186 CC, I'm using a Sellmansberger Imperial with Profundo (tall) rim - it is the perfect mouthpiece for this tuba, and it makes this tuba point-and-shoot. Larger mouthpieces (and smaller mouthpieces) do NOT do as well with response and intonation.

[Stryk]

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

Around here folks can argue over a stick.

[Stryk]

With my 186 CC, I'm using a Sellmansberger Imperial with Profundo (tall) rim - it is the perfect mouthpiece for this tuba, and it makes this tuba point-and-shoot. Larger mouthpieces (and smaller mouthpieces) do NOT do as well with response and intonation.

That is the ONE mouthpiece from Joe's line that I don't own - may have to correct that issue.

[bloke]

Thank God...
I'll be able to make up my in-arrears yacht payment.

[Doc]

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

Around here folks can argue over a stick.

BE825A6E-A613-4588-A7AC-04E54F25334E.jpeg (14.73 KiB) Viewed 1110 times

[matt g]

My 186 was fine with a C4, and just as fine with a SHII. Conn Helleberg (120S) too. Maybe I had a Bach 18 then too? I dunno. Pitch was fine with all of them.

On my 188, I settled on a Bach 7. That was based on timbre. Pitch was fine (darn near perfect) on all mouthpieces.

I’ve not noticed an mouthpiece really correct intonation issues of a tuba on its own. It might make certain parts of the register respond better or bring out overtones that aid in hearing the center of the pitch better. Like @bloke said, a smaller volume cup allows for the player to ride high if needed with less work.

Bore is such a tricky term anyhow. A Miraphone has about 8-10” more leadpipe than a typical York clone. I’d wager my 0.687 bore CC has a similar rate of taper to the end of the valves when compared to a 186/188.

It’s kinda like comparing the bore on a standard “American” style Bb trumpet to a rotary valve trumpet or a flugelhorn. Trumpet players would scoff at a flugelhorn having a 0.413 bore as compared to a 0.460 bore but not consider that the flugelhorn had 6” of pipe before the valves as compared to 18”.

Regardless, I don’t think there’s much a mouthpiece can influence in terms of intonation, but rather allows the player to alter the input buzz with improved ease.

[KingTuba1241X]

The larger the valveset bore size, the less DIFFERENCE in the qualities of the resonance a different-shaped mouthpiece cup makes.

Not entirely true when you look at the Russian-made tubas. .830'' bore, and very mouthpiece sensitive when it relates to resonance and response. A Rotary valve tuba that loves deep funnel-shaped mouthpieces like an American tuba unlike it's German counterparts (also rotary) with slightly smaller bores which like shallow/flat cups for the best results. Certainly goes against the grain.

[Stryk]

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

Around here folks can argue over a stick.

BE825A6E-A613-4588-A7AC-04E54F25334E.jpeg

THAT is a twig, don't you know the difference?

[bloke]

It seems to me that (after I've repaired a busted St. Pete for a school...typically: carriage arm supports) when I play a St. Pete with anything from a super-wide/deep Holton 52 down to a Miraphone 23, those tubas (via bell shape) are going to offer a coarse grunting type of sound.

They "feel" great to blow though, because they are "open".

[KingTuba1241X]

Grunting like a Lap Sousaphone? or Grunting like a 88mm panzer? I found more than on a couple occasions that the Yamaha Jim Self is an excellent choice on the Russian horns.

[jtm]

With my 186 CC, I'm using a Sellmansberger Imperial with Profundo (tall) rim - it is the perfect mouthpiece for this tuba, and it makes this tuba point-and-shoot. Larger mouthpieces (and smaller mouthpieces) do NOT do as well with response and intonation.

I don't have the brochure at hand... How does the Imperial compare to the Symphony?

[Yorkboy]

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

Around here folks can argue over a stick.

BE825A6E-A613-4588-A7AC-04E54F25334E.jpeg

13934757_1239022392796850_1039702735574425771_n.jpg (35.95 KiB) Viewed 1068 times

[Doc]

Around here folks can argue over a stick.

BE825A6E-A613-4588-A7AC-04E54F25334E.jpeg

13934757_1239022392796850_1039702735574425771_n.jpg

He has limbs!

[Doc]

With my 186 CC, I'm using a Sellmansberger Imperial with Profundo (tall) rim - it is the perfect mouthpiece for this tuba, and it makes this tuba point-and-shoot. Larger mouthpieces (and smaller mouthpieces) do NOT do as well with response and intonation.

I don't have the brochure at hand... How does the Imperial compare to the Symphony?

It’s not as bowl shaped, as deep, or as voluminous as the Symphony. I think (IIRC), the Imperial, while not a funnel a la Helleberg, it is the most funnel-ish mp in the line-up.