TubaForum.net

I've never played this piece on anything other than my communist-era (smaller mouthpipe/smaller-bore primary valve circuits) F tuba.
There seems to be a belief - among some tuba players - that "bigger is louder" (...so why don't 6/4 tubas drown out bass trombones, and why can cimbassos ACTUALLY drown out bass trombone...?? )

Saint-Saëns' French tuba - aka "saxhorn basse" - (as we all know) was an extra-large bore six-valve challenging-intonation 8-feet-bugle baritone...so I figure that a 12-foot-bugle much-larger-bore tuba with a six-inch-larger bell easy-to-play-in-tune tuba is plenty large enough.

I believe you will hear it (on this microphone-in-the-balcony recording) just fine.
Was I "blasting my guts out"? Though the video is not great nor zoomed in on low brass - and I'm actually sitting down in a "hole", I'm pretty sure that it's easily ascertained that I was not "blasting my guts out".
Further, were it that I was "blasting my guts out", [1] it would not have sounded the same, and [2] the tuba (actually) would not have been as easy to hear in the mix.



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fwiw...This was a remarkable performance. There was ONE rehearsal, and slated were this plus a nearly-ten-minutes-long new commissioned overture. We really were only able to go through the overture once, and through this symphony also only once, and we performed the entire symphony, and not just this final movement. Further, the "covid seating" (on stage) made things all the more challenging.

Peter (music director) afterward - on my way out the door, asked me "Where were you sitting? I always heard you, but never saw you...??"
Admittedly, I really could not see him, either, and (mostly) played from sound, as his stick was not really visible to me.

Administrators:
Move this to "media" if you choose, though the actual topic - at least, in my view - is "underestimating the sonic weight and carrying power of F tubas".

Loud and clear. Certainly plenty of horn in that venue. In a 1500+ hall, I’m bringing big boy

The F tuba sounds great! Plenty of sound. I think that the biggest difference between 6/4 tubas vs. smaller tubas (bass vs. contrabass) isn't volume, it's the type/or quality of the timbre. I agree though, it's much easier to be heard on smaller equipment... really much easier to slice through the texture with a unique and distinguishable "voice."

This place (where we performed, re: the organ in place) claims to seat over 2000...and is carpeted and upholstered - which reduces resonance.
I dunno how comfortably it would actually seat 2000, but I'm quite sure that it will accommodate over 1000 easily, as it often has.

https://www.pews.com/page/photo_gallery_28.aspx

I've played in some extremely resonant halls (in other cities) and cathedrals (in my own home town) which - as is my understanding - are more along the lines of the European tradition.
When I find myself in such venues, "less sonic energy" (or whatever might be the least pretentious expression for this, as what I just typed seems to me to be a bit verbose/ostentatious) is the order of the day...at least: that's how I personally *react to über-resonant halls. When we listen to well-made recordings (made in such places) - or are fortunate enough to attend a live performance in one of those places, if the brass sound is "amazing", it's likely because the instruments are resonating at their ideal dynamic ("forte" or "forte-plus") and the hall is doing the rest of the "work". We've all heard recordings of some of the finest brass musicians - playing with "the pedal to the metal". Others may stick with those recordings, but I click away from them fairly quickly. The European-orchestras-utilized "kaiser BB♭" tubas' (rotary) bore sizes tend to be quite large, but - past their valvesets - they tend more towards 5/4 size than 6/4...and the larger valveset bores - more than anything else (contributing very little to the quality of the sound) - compensate for the additional resistance that rotary machines tend to add. Those tubas really don't naturally sound like 6/4 string-bass-sound-ish tubas very much at all, but (again) when used in very resonant halls - and not pushed beyond reasonable limits - (as we've heard, via well-made recordings) they can sound amazing.

We all choose to use the instruments that we choose for various reasons. Some of them - often - are cost, which is a very reasonable way to choose.
When appearance is one of the reasons, it's difficult to argue against that as well.

Were it that I played in a professional (military) wind band - and had some funds - I'm fairly sure that I would try to have/use a Miraphone 98 ( 6/4 / string-bass-sounding / nicely-in-tune / easy-to-play / fully-chromatic / BB♭ )...but that's not what any of those professionals have chosen, so I'm likely quarterbacking from the bleachers with that supposition.
When appearance is one of the reasons, it's difficult to argue against that as well...but otherwise (as I've posted ad nauseum...sorry... ) I've been way-way down the 6/4 C rabbit hole, and have found my way back out of it.

Most good-condition tubas can be used to play most any tuba music...which remains to be my main point.
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*Truth be told, when not prepared for them, they distract me, and I never completely get over the distraction - while rehearsing/performing in such venues.

The last time I played this, the dickless organ player played SO loudly, I stopped playing!!!

tclements wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:53 am The last time I played this, the dickless organ player played SO loudly, I stopped playing!!!

In this particular instance, comments were made about the organ being just large enough. Perhaps, this organ was a “4/4”...?

tclements wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:53 am The last time I played this, the dickless organ player played SO loudly, I stopped playing!!!

I've done this at Kennedy Center with my 5/4 Marzan, and the Bass Trombone (Jay Hildebrandt) and I had to be satisfied with what we considered a "draw" with the organ...

I know I pointed this out earlier, but this is just a reminder that Camille Saint-Saëns’ tuba was a extra-large bore extended-range baritone horn in C (8 ft. bugle).
I just don’t believe that he expected it to be able to compete - toe-to-toe - with a pipe organ.

That been said - at least with the “big“ pipe organ at our performance (vs. a gigantic one) I believe that the not-professional recording of our performance demonstrates that the F tuba offers enough of a “nose“ in its resonance to make it past the white noise and through the fog (and possibly, the C baritone might do the same), yes...?

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:46 pm I know I pointed this out earlier, but this is just a reminder that Camille Saint-Saëns’ tuba was a extra-large bore extended-range baritone horn in C (8 ft. bugle).
I just don’t believe that he expected it to be able to compete - toe-to-toe - with a pipe organ.

I don't think he saw it as any sort of competition, but saw the French tuba as a specific timbre he wanted; one that produced more audible 'wattage' than the bass- or contrabass tubas, and also blended better with the trombones. I believe that was his goal.

Here's a comparison of an excerpt from this symphony. Me with a trombone section (DMA lecture/recital). First on my Nirschl/York CC, and then the same excerpt on my Couesnon French tuba in C.


(Can't seem to embed the video at a specific start time. Thanks forum coders for making this process needlessly inscrutable )
https://youtu.be/313HdaUj0iE?t=1454

Any time a tuba with more (...you used "wattage"...I used "nose") in its resonance is chosen, the intonation requirements become more rigid, because - when the quality of the resonance leans in that direction - it offers the patrons (as well as colleagues, and MD) more intonation context (ie. "overtones").

It's sort of like cassette tape recordings which used heavy Dolby noise reduction to reduce tape hiss...
When the "Dolby" button was depressed, most of the dubious intonation - in recorded performances - lessened.

The first time I watched your videos, I didn't have a youtube account.
I now do, happened to be logged in, and gave both of them well-deserved-and-much-more thumbs up.

This is one of my favorite pieces, and you guys sounded great. Well done!

Is this the church, and organ?

https://pipeorgandatabase.org/organ/7788

fff

Heavy_Metal wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:23 pm This is one of my favorite pieces, and you guys sounded great. Well done!

Is this the church, and organ?

https://pipeorgandatabase.org/organ/7788

yes sir.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:15 pm The first time I watched your videos, I didn't have a youtube account.
I now do, happened to be logged in, and gave both of them well-deserved-and-much-more thumbs up.

Thanks, Bloke! Yeah, aside from earning me my (apparently worthless) DMA, the point of the lecture/recital was to demonstrate that the French composers actually knew what they were doing when they consciously wrote for French tuba; it's just a different musical character. Once that penny drops, tuba parts like the Rite of Spring and the Organ Symphony make a lot more sense, maybe even to the 6/4 BAT addicted.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:40 am

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:15 pm The first time I watched your videos, I didn't have a youtube account.
I now do, happened to be logged in, and gave both of them well-deserved-and-much-more thumbs up.

Thanks, Bloke! Yeah, aside from earning me my (apparently worthless) DMA, the point of the lecture/recital was to demonstrate that the French composers actually knew what they were doing when they consciously wrote for French tuba; it's just a different musical character. Once that penny drops, tuba parts like the Rite of Spring and the Organ Symphony make a lot more sense, maybe even to the 6/4 BAT addicted.

I do not-at-all snub the French tuba (as I view it as quite cool, and - were it that all French tubas played-and-were-played as well as yours - seems to render all the recently-introduced not-so-great rotary "tiny tubas" as poor alternates), but (if you "follow" me - even a little bit) you can see that - for me - it would become "an instrument too far".
I already own a very nice/easy-to-play-in-tune/very resonant double-low range compensating euphonium, a very nice (very very large bugle, and also easy-to-play-in-tune) kaiser bariton (fully chromatic - yet with one more [6th] rotor awaiting installation), a very nice-playing contrabass trombone mouthpiece to (alternately) use with either of those instruments, a darn-nice-playing bass trumpet (aka: King Flugabone), even a valve trombone (when the "look" of a trombone - vs. a Flugabone/bass trumpet - is important), a remarkably-nice-playing F cimbasso, and an F tuba which plays (I say that it plays, because it does all the things it does without me giving it the constant attention known as "practicing") all over the place with remarkable clarity/resonance/reliable intonation, in addition to the choice-of-3-bells comp. E-flat, a very resonant/very-little-slide-yanking 5/4 CC (plenty large, as I tend to view the CSO-types as yet another "instrument too far" thing...but that's my personal view, so...), a 4-valve BB-flat sousaphone, and (even, recently) a German BB-flat kaiser orchester tuba.

The previous is not a brag of "stuff", but the explanation that I have plenty of "stuff" (all of which can make particular jobs much easier, and seriously cut down on "wood-shedding" time), and that "adding more stuff in the 8-ft/9-ft group of instruments" (at least, in my view) would become - if not already - excessive.

For a further comparison, in 2018, I played the Organ Symphony on a Miraphone 191 BBb in Benaroya Hall with Joseph Adam playing the Watjen Concert Organ.

I wish we could have had all of our strings onboard, this year.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:52 pm

I wish we could have had all of our strings onboard, this year.

Mark wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:31 pm For a further comparison, in 2018, I played the Organ Symphony on a Miraphone 191 BBb in Benaroya Hall with Joseph Adam playing the Watjen Concert Organ.

This is definitely on-topic for this board- the description reads, in part: ....... the “tuba” division, a set of pipes driven by a higher wind pressure and designed specifically to accompany a full orchestra at musical climaxes."

Nice job!

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:40 am

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:15 pm The first time I watched your videos, I didn't have a youtube account.
I now do, happened to be logged in, and gave both of them well-deserved-and-much-more thumbs up.

Thanks, Bloke! Yeah, aside from earning me my (apparently worthless) DMA, the point of the lecture/recital was to demonstrate that the French composers actually knew what they were doing when they consciously wrote for French tuba; it's just a different musical character. Once that penny drops, tuba parts like the Rite of Spring and the Organ Symphony make a lot more sense, maybe even to the 6/4 BAT addicted.

You are a man of tremendous faith!