TubaForum.net

bloke wrote:Good instrumentalists produce good characteristic sounds of their instruments.

Great instrumentalists produce characteristic sounds of great music.

...discuss, and/or argue for/against...or scroll to another thread.

===============================

What prompted this post?

Quickly scrolling through some "story" posts, I just (accidentally) stumbled across a couple of "good instrumentalist" tuba videos on fb.
' plenty of well-executed/characteristic tuba sounds, but not very much music.
------
just to clarify:
I just listened to Daniel's vocalise (Kontrabasstuba) linked here (not fb)...very nicely done!

From early on I discovered that it is not the horn, it's the player. Though I do also appreciate a nice horn. You decide what nice means : )

I agree!

Mark

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:00 am

bloke wrote:Good instrumentalists produce good characteristic sounds of their instruments.

Great instrumentalists produce characteristic sounds of great music.

...discuss, and/or argue for/against...or scroll to another thread.

===============================

What prompted this post?

Quickly scrolling through some "story" posts, I just (accidentally) stumbled across a couple of "good instrumentalist" tuba videos on fb.
' plenty of well-executed/characteristic tuba sounds, but not very much music.
------
just to clarify:
I just listened to Daniel's vocalise (Kontrabasstuba) linked here (not fb)...very nicely done!

Is it possible to be a great or even "good" instrumentalist without a characteristic sound?

How would you feel about plenty of well- executed "music", but not very much "characteristic" tuba sound?

We should always strive for great "music," however, the journey is or can be a long one. Two thumbs up to all who are sharing their beautiful tuba sounds along the way! And keep striving to make beautiful music!

I'm suggesting that "characteristic sound" is a lower level of mastery that is "music".
Rather, "characteristic sound" and "good technical execution" are only ~components~ of music.
Without music, music isn't music.
Below a level which actually achieves "music", it's merely something for a judge to mark a with a score ranging from III to I.

btw, Dan...
I never click away from your videos or sound files, just fwiw.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:43 pm I'm suggesting that "characteristic sound" is a lower level of mastery that is "music".
Rather, "characteristic sound" and "good technical execution" are only ~components~ of music.
Without music, music isn't music.
Below a level which actually achieves "music", it's merely something for a judge to mark a with a score ranging from III to I.

btw, Dan...
I never click away from your videos or sound files, just fwiw.

Through my journey, I have discovered that it is very hard to achieve a level of mastery on the tuba(or any level of mastery if at all) in which one can express the same level of "artistry" or "musicianship" as that of other families/types of instrumentalists. One could argue that very few tuba players have acheived this, when compared to the great instrumentalists from other families. However, that's not to say that some degree or even the same degree of "artistry", "musicianship" can't be achieved on tuba.I sometimes wonder if it's the typical role that tuba plays in ensembles, in music in general, that contributes to the lack of artistry or musicianship that we achieve/demonstrate as tuba players. So much time (which is essential) is spent on developing a good characteristic sound, time, articulation, intonation, etc. However, maybe not as much time is spent on developing other aspects of musicianship, nuance, finesse, direction, "turning a phrase" and/or telling a story. Many factors I am sure, contribute to this.

However, I think that it is encouraging to hear so many young people achieving great sounds, and technique. I am thankful that we have widely available technology at our fingertips that enables us to listen to great instrumentalists, as well as listen back/share with others our achievements(snapshots) along the way on our musical journeys. I encourage all to record yourselves regularly, it really is a great way to learn. I also encourage all to continue sharing their achievements (videos, sound files/recordings) for all of us to enjoy. I also challenge myself, as well as others to continue striving for "artistry" in your performances, practice sessions, ensembles, recordings etc.

I've heard great players make great sounds on equipment that could only charitably called mediocre, but . . . not being distracted by the deficiencies of any instrument allows any player at any level to play better, to be a better overall musician, and to come closer to realizing his/her potential. Distractions get in the way. A great player may be able to overcome an instrument's inadequacies, but why should he have to, especially if his/her career is on the line? Let a great player have a great horn, and he'll produce even greater sounds.

My original topic had nothing to do with instruments, but of course threads will go where they will go.
Most topics do tend to be about equipment, and not about making music.

Dan Tuba wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:53 pm Through my journey, I have discovered that it is very hard to achieve a level of mastery on the tuba(or any level of mastery if at all) in which one can express the same level of "artistry" or "musicianship" as that of other families/types of instrumentalists. One could argue that very few tuba players have acheived this, when compared to the great instrumentalists from other families. However, that's not to say that some degree or even the same degree of "artistry", "musicianship" can't be achieved on tuba.I sometimes wonder if it's the typical role that tuba plays in ensembles, in music in general, that contributes to the lack of artistry or musicianship that we achieve/demonstrate as tuba players. So much time (which is essential) is spent on developing a good characteristic sound, time, articulation, intonation, etc. However, maybe not as much time is spent on developing other aspects of musicianship, nuance, finesse, direction, "turning a phrase" and/or telling a story. Many factors I am sure, contribute to this.

However, I think that it is encouraging to hear so many young people achieving great sounds, and technique. I am thankful that we have widely available technology at our fingertips that enables us to listen to great instrumentalists, as well as listen back/share with others our achievements(snapshots) along the way on our musical journeys. I encourage all to record yourselves regularly, it really is a great way to learn. I also encourage all to continue sharing their achievements (videos, sound files/recordings) for all of us to enjoy. I also challenge myself, as well as others to continue striving for "artistry" in your performances, practice sessions, ensembles, recordings etc.

Sure - our role as tuba players is 99% ensemble/bass line/support stuff. A steady diet of oompahs (invoking Arnold Jacobs) is not the best diet for a developing musician that plays tuba. And folks often talk about musicianship and artistry from the perspective as a soloist. Playing melodies musically is certainly important to a musician's development, but what about developing good support functions? Developing good bass lines? (Not challenging you, Dan... Just adding thoughts to the mix.) Those require a nearly-unconscious grasp of scales, arpeggios, timing, ear-training, listening to recordings, bass part function, and "feel" or "groove" or "style," not just a focus on being a soloist (although all those skills support solo playing). There is so much more to musicianship than the perspective of a soloist telling a story. Or can we learn all we need to become musicians from simply telling a (solo) story?

Can a player not tell a story with a well-crafted bassline, either alone or working together with a group to collectively tell the story? Isn't it all inter-related anyway? If you have played any of Sousa's marches or other music, you know that many of his bass lines are melodic and could almost stand as melodies themselves. In any case, they are music. Understanding how his bass lines interact with the rest of the music can be very educational when creating your own, all in service of the music. Doesn't it take a musician to do that successfully? If it takes a village to raise a child, it takes an ensemble to tell a story, with everyone having unique and important roles to help produce the desired result. (btw, I hold neither of those as absolutes)

Bringing it back to bloke's original post: In the process of developing skills as a musician, isn't characteristic tone along for the developmental ride? If you are learning, listening, training, being properly taught, etc. isn't that just part of the process? These two statements might be true on their own, but they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I assume one could have great development in terms of tone and not be much of a musician. Maybe in the development of characteristic tone, musicianship is not necessarily along for the ride I don't know anyone who teaches students that way, but it likely exists somewhere. Sometimes gifted young players have great tone for their age, but they have yet to develop their musicianship to match, but since they are young, we hope that will catch up with time, maturity, and training. Adult players can be that way, but it seems to me that most adult players have a tone and musicianship that often corresponds to the amount of time and effort they are able to devote to either.

my life observation:

I’ve worked with many competent instrumentalists who seem quite satisfied simply to “sit on a note” if there are no instructions on a page to do otherwise.

Raising my hand, I’ve caught myself being guilty of the very same thing many times, but I immediately would pull myself into the job at hand, and focus on what I should do to turn my “good tone production“, “correct rhythms”, etc., into actual music.

If we don’t want to completely be replaced by synthetic music, we need to be able to do more than can be done with synthetic music.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:32 am my life observation:

I’ve worked with many competent instrumentalists who seem quite satisfied simply to “sit on a note” if there are no instructions on a page to do otherwise.

Raising my hand, I’ve caught myself being guilty of the very same thing many times, but I immediately would pull myself into the job at hand, and focus on what I should do to turn my “good tone production“, “correct rhythms”, etc., into actual music.

If we don’t want to completely be replaced by synthetic music, we need to be able to do more than can be done with synthetic music.

@Doc

Sure, there's plenty of artistry and musicianship necessary to play a good supporting role. With that said, if you don't have an idea of how to shape the melody, or where a particular line is going, then playing a good supporting role becomes difficult and you may or may not be limited in your ability to do so. Of course there are harmonic "cues" based on the structure of the music, so you could pick up on that without knowing the melody or knowing how to shape that line. However, again, that may or may not be as obvious to us.

I have played/performed with many "background" instrumentalists, to include myself, that when asked to perform a simple melody, where they are now taking the "lead," and found their/my ability to shape the line, somewhat limited. Maybe because our musical vocabulary is limited, or maybe because a lack of technical ability? Could be a lot of reasons.

Artistry and musicianship are important to strive for no matter what role (supporting, soloist)you are performing.

Dan Tuba wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:56 pm @Doc

Sure, there's plenty of artistry and musicianship necessary to play a good supporting role. With that said, if you don't have an idea of how to shape the melody, or where a particular line is going, then playing a good supporting role becomes difficult and you may or may not be limited in your ability to do so. Of course there are harmonic "cues" based on the structure of the music, so you could pick up on that without knowing the melody or knowing how to shape that line. However, again, that may or may not be as obvious to us.

I have played/performed with many "background" instrumentalists, to include myself, that when asked to perform a simple melody, where they are now taking the "lead," and found their/my ability to shape the line, somewhat limited. Maybe because our musical vocabulary is limited, or maybe because a lack of technical ability? Could be a lot of reasons.

Artistry and musicianship are important to strive for no matter what role (supporting, soloist)you are performing.

^^^ The response I thought I might receive.

Dan Tuba wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:56 pm

I have played/performed with many "background" instrumentalists, to include myself, that when asked to perform a simple melody, where they are now taking the "lead," and found their/my ability to shape the line, somewhat limited. Maybe because our musical vocabulary is limited, or maybe because a lack of technical ability? Could be a lot of reasons.

This could be its own thread. We tossed these ideas around in the former universe. Not sure how much it has been discussed here in the New World. Probably not ad nauseum yet, so we could wear it out all over again. LOL

In my later years, I've finally sought out a few more MUSIC lessons (as opposed to "guitar" or "tuba" or "piano" lessons).
Some of them were videos, and some of them have been in-person.

It's worth anyone's time/effort...and even the simplest "lines" (after some enlightenment) become more - well... - interesting (and not just to the patrons, but also more interesting to the instrumentalist - who is generating those lines - as well).

There is PLENTY that someone tastefully/logically can do to create/enhance interest - all within "X" dynamic level's RANGE of dynamics...and shaping phrases is "catching" with one's colleagues.

I occasionally even hear others whisper, "I'm just doing what bloke is doing". [gulp]...as if I know what the hell I'm doing...

something else...
all of the different types of articulations that jazz instrumentalists use...
Virtually ALL of them have useful applications in NOT-jazz music.
(Consider the infinite types of vocal articulations there are...and the hundreds of types of bowed stringed instrument articulations there are.)
...and one type (that our school teachers told us to NEVER use) is to just begin a sound by BLOWING (yep: NO tongue). That one is PARTICULARLY useful.

Great art stops time.
If I look at a painting and I’m my thoughts overwhelmed by it then it’s great art.
If I listen to a musician and immediately “bam” with the very first note I’m captivated in their world: that is a great instrumentalist.
If you can make time stand still in your art, you have a gift others die for.

PS I think this might be one of the reason some artists are terrible about managing time