TubaForum.net

Those of you know know me know that I started on TubeNet as a euphonium player back around 2000. I was a euph performance major but finished my degree with jazz studies on bass.

For reasons, I've since stopped playing euph but started working on tuba almost a decade ago, which doubled my gigging opportunities, and allowed me specific gigs that wouldn't have been available to me had I never picked up the tuba. This has almost exclusively been commercial/jazz/Broadway tour gigs, doubling gigs, and not classical stuff, save for a few brass quintet subbing jobs.

Fast forward to this whole lockdown situation, I've had a ton of gumption, with nothing else to do, to spend my daily practicing really attacking the weak spots of my tuba playing that haven't really developed to my liking since I picked it up. My playing is improving at a regular pace, and faster than it has been before the lockdown. I've been sightreading etudes and some of my old euphonium literature down an octave with surprising success. I am working on one of the most difficult Vivaldi cello sonatas (due to the large leaps) and am very happy with the results, and while I'm not ready to really attack any Bach suite, I'm getting closer to giving them a real whirl.

Sightreading orchestral literature is better than I thought, and I could see myself making these sound very great. Since my legit chops have really taken off during this, I'd love to put myself out there in the local symphony circles as a competent sub. Here's where I'm stuck:

My two horns are a Kanstul 5/4 BBb, which sounds great for this stuff; and a Conn 12J, which actually doesn't sound awful for bass tuba parts. But, of course, I'd love a bass tuba, but can't justify that purchase with the trickle of income coming in while waiting for my gigs to come back. I can play Meistersinger, Hungarian March, etc. with relative ease on the horn--the range and the lip trill aren't the issue, I just really have to put the work in for the in-depth study of such excerpts to really knock them out of the park.

Now, due to the cost of a bass tuba, the lack of gigs currently, and the lack of gigs for being a simple tuba sub to add to the commercial gigs...is this just something not really worth the headache of saving up for, coupled with the likely disinterest of my girlfriend in seeing yet a new hunk of brass in the house that may or may not pay itself off with gigs?

A 4 valve Eb could get you into the world of bass tubas cheaply. I think a lot can be done with only 4 valves. Im biased but I think Bb to Eb makes more sense then F, but your mileage may vary.

If your interested I know of a nice-ish looking smaller bell compensator Eb.

Yeah, I was thinking Eb, mainly because they're cheaper here, and I just kinda like to be different. The move, like you said, feels like it would be easier than F, and a halfway decent F horn is going to be at least twice the cost. I do know of a 4v front action monster for sale that I'm eyeing, but I can't justify the purchase unless my gigs start back up again.

I was really close to looking into 3+1, since it would just be like a large euphonium, but I feel that something that looks like orchestral horns that the other musicians are comfortable seeing is half the game (on top of nailing the playing). So that's part of it, too.

I'd love a Jon Fletcher approach, but I'm not he.

As far as looking the part for orchestra gigs, unless you walk in with a "silver_ 6/4 York inspired" CC tuba, maybe a PT6P type, you will have already failed

With that said, I would consider selling your two BBb Tubas and purchasing a nice 3+1 Compensating EEb tuba. Whether commercial gigs(they mic up well), orchestral gigs (really any regional, tier 2 orchestra), performing as a soloist, small chamber ensembles, etc...the 3+1 Compensating EEb will be a great tool. Response, intonation, agility, etc will all be great once you get used to this type of tuba. Occasionally, you might find yourself in a situation where you are "out gunned", but I emphasize "occasionally" = "rarely." Your "color palette" may also be a little more limited, however, in my opinion, the benefits outweigh any perceptible limitations in regards to this. Overall, EEb tubas are an excellent "freelancer" tool.

Good luck on your journey. Tuba is so much fun

IMHO, Eb is the way to go. You can do almost everything with it, except for the heaviest orchestral excerpts. For quintet and jazz gigs, F just doesn't provide the fundamental (bass function) you need to provide for the group.

Thanks, guys.

I don't think I could ever get rid of the B-flats. There's no way I could get to the proficiency of thinking of B-flat fingerings for the last 30 years, especially in an improvisational standpoint. I simply couldn't imagine reworking all my basslines!

But yeah, I love the idea of an E-flat on top of this.

I'm glad that I'm still thinking similarly to the rest, though!

In the for sale forum, watch for me to update my Besson 983 ad tomorrow with actual pictures.
It has everything you would want in an E-flat tuba:
four valves on the front, YET fully chromatic, can be used to play contrabass tuba parts or F tuba parts, great Intonation, great condition…
...and this one is neither a Chinese knockoff nor a German knockoff… It is the genuine made-in-England article.
I just finished chemical cleaning, polishing it (silver), picking over small dents, and picking over slide alignment.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:57 pm In the for sale forum, watch for me to update my Besson 983 ad tomorrow with actual pictures.

Man, that would be perfect. I just can't justify that purchase unless my calendar completely filled up with gigs tomorrow and I knew where I was working every day until 2022.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by four valves yet fully chromatic? Is it compensating?

Yes. It is one of the rare front-action compensating E-flat tubas, and also is the best of them.

I’m going to avoid talking about social-economic situations, but as far as work is concerned, I‘ve determined that musicians usually are responsible for how much work they do.

Decades ago, a mediocre pair of trumpet players, a mediocre horn player, and a pretty good trombone player contacted me about playing in a quintet they were forming. I agreed, and they rehearsed weekly. I typically play with quintets that really don’t need to rehearse to play run-of-the-mill gigs, but they did need to rehearse. The thing was that they were aggressive about finding work, and they worked more than some other quintets (with which I was also associated) that were made up of far better players.

There’s also a jazz tuba person in this area who (during normal times) plays a few more jazz gigs than I do (unless you count that steady weekly cruise gig that I had prior to the economic shutdown), because he formed his own band and beat the bushes for gigs.

I’ve also found that being hooked up with a bunch of little combos leads to more random little church gigs.

Oh yeah, totally. I'm still feeling the holding pattern until "normal times" right now. I am interested in getting quintet/quartet work (good horn players are such a hot commodity and hard to nail down here), but everyone is so pessimistic about gigging with them.

I'm really stuck in the lack of gigs due to the covid situation, it's just the how or when things will come back. I still got my church gig thankfully, and a few pickup gigs, but I can count the amount of brass gigs I've done in the last year on one hand.

On the plus side, I did organize my first orchestral low brass reading session with some of the local orchestra guys. They know me strictly as a commercial player, so it's my chance to impress them.

Keep practicing, consider saving your equipment money for the time being, locate a teacher and start taking lessons and getting acquainted.

Their advice can help you stay focused on the sound in your head.

‘ funny how players are so easily pigeonholed as as “jazz“ or “legit“, rather than “OK“, “good“, “great“, or “amazing“.

dp wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:20 am Keep practicing, consider saving your equipment money for the time being, locate a teacher and start taking lessons and getting acquainted.

Their advice can help you stay focused on the sound in your head.

This is great advice. I'm working occasionally with the local symphony tuba player; every year or so, he sits with me, hears me, and steers me in the right direction. I'd love more time with him, but we're both usually busy on gigs, and he has a day job.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:39 am ‘ funny how players are so easily pigeonholed as as “jazz“ or “legit“, rather than “OK“, “good“, “great“, or “amazing“.

Well, it was easy to take jazz gigs by combining my euphonium and jazz bass knowledge to the tuba before I really had any tuba chops. It took a few years to feel "good" about the low end of the instrument...and I'm still really working on it. Don't need that low range to walk a good bassline, but now that I'm getting it, dang, is it fun.

So I was never a "great" tuba player, but a very competent jazz/brass musician who made it work. And this lockdown really gave me the opportunity to remedy that.

If you can separate this believed-by-me-to-be fact from the fact that I have one for sale, (really good) E-flat tubas are the easiest tubas of all to play.

That's good to know. I'm still not in the classical circles here, and with Covid, it's even less likely someone would let me come by and play their horns to see what playing a bass tuba is like. But I'd love to sit for an afternoon with an Eb or F horn to see what it's like.

Joe, thoughts on getting something a little more entry-level (like a 4v front Conn Monster that I mentioned) and working my way and money up to something like the Besson?

I used to have a relative, a Pan American Eb Giant Bass, ca. mid 1920s, made by Conn and I think more or less the same thing under a different label.

Fun tuba. I'd be surprised as hell if anyone has ever played something like that much in legit music, or frankly anything where you really have to play in tune. If you want a bass tuba, I suspect a contrabass tuba with a bass tuba valve section transplant is not ideal.

Your original post reads to me like you know the score. It's kind of traditional for people here to encourage each other to buy more tubas, don't take it too seriously. Maybe you'd be interested in my little Italian 3V Orsi Eb? It's quite economical.

This is a fun thread for me to read as it pretty closely parallels my own relationship with the tuba.

A couple differences, though.

I was a trombone player first but then did learn some tuba in HS when the only player graduated. Then at the end of my junior year the band director asked me if I'd consider taking bass lessons over the summer as we didn't have a bass player for jazz band the coming year. I worked really hard over the summer break and continued taking lessons till I got to college. Then I realized there just wasn't enough time in the day and chose to focus on trombone.

A few years out of college I picked up a beater 3-valve Eb tuba off of CL for like $100. It worked, barely. I think I had it for all of a month or 2 when a friend asked, "you know anyone who plays tuba?" More shedding and then I was off to the races. Been gigging ever since, and quickly switched to BBb horns as that's really what's needed for the gigs I do. And over the last few (precovid) years the scales began tipping from trombone over to tuba. 2019 was probably around 2/3 tuba gigs.

I have to say, those 14 months of bass lessons at the end of HS really prepared me for jumping into the tuba as bass role. In my soul, I'm a bass player. I love the groove. That's where I want to be: locking in with the drums and nudging the soloists. So, fun.

A couple of years ago I started playing with a concert band and really started practicing the tuba in a more traditional manner. I just started going through the same things I did on trombone: Arbans, Bordogni, Kopprasch. I would like to take some lessons at some point as I've never actually had a tuba lesson before. I know, weird.

Anyway, I, too, have been really considering an Eb tuba. That first one I got is long gone and I have no regrets there! When covid hit and the concert band went on hiatus, the tuba section (the 3 of us) decided we'd get together and form a Trio. It's been really fun! I've never really played "chamber tuba" before so it's quite a challenge. For a lot of the stuff, I think a bass tuba would be the way to go. Both the other guys have both. One is a BBb and Eb guy, the other a CC and F guy. I feel like I'm not pulling my weight as much, always opting for the lower parts. I did bring my euphonium to the last get together which was fun but my facility in the basement register is not quite up to snuff. Also, the tone just isn't quite right for some of the things.

I guess that was the long way of saying "me, too!", BobEuph.

One thing I can say is that, as beautiful as those front action Bessons are, at those prices, I just can't justify them. For me, like my euphonium, the Eb tuba is more of a hobby instrument that if I'm lucky will one day pay for itself.

donn wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:43 am Fun tuba. I'd be surprised as hell if anyone has ever played something like that much in legit music, or frankly anything where you really have to play in tune. If you want a bass tuba, I suspect a contrabass tuba with a bass tuba valve section transplant is not ideal.

Intonation has never really been an issue for me; my chops do great at lipping squirrely notes when I learn the instrument (or even before). I do a ton of drone work on a daily basis. My only real worry is if the horn is in 440 or not, and that the notes can be coaxed into a good resonance. But I did not know it was a contrabass bugle; I guess that's why they're called "Monster" or "Giant." I wondered if the bell could be swapped for something smaller if so.[/quote]

donn wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:43 amYour original post reads to me like you know the score. It's kind of traditional for people here to encourage each other to buy more tubas, don't take it too seriously. Maybe you'd be interested in my little Italian 3V Orsi Eb? It's quite economical.

Yeah, definitely. I kinda was curious to see if anyone thought I should be talked out of getting another horn until I can afford something really great.

I appreciate the offer for the Orsi, but if I do get a bass tuba, I want it to, at the very least, fool a non low brass player (like a viola player or something) that my tuba is no more special or unique than the guy they usually have sitting in that chair. Even with classical musicians, too many people hear with their eyes, and I feel like I could work to my heart's content on a 3v top action Eb and play the snot out of Hungarian March, but all they'll see is "that guy playing on something different. I don't like it," or complaints that the bell is pointed in the wrong direction. Gotta keep up the charade!

Kirley wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:49 amI guess that was the long way of saying "me, too!", BobEuph.

One thing I can say is that, as beautiful as those front action Bessons are, at those prices, I just can't justify them. For me, like my euphonium, the Eb tuba is more of a hobby instrument that if I'm lucky will one day pay for itself.

Thanks! I do have a rule (which was broken with the Kanstul), that any instrument purchase should pay for itself in less than a year, or it was a bad purchase. Switching from playing commercial/jazz music to learning orchestral literature, I decided to let patience win out on this. I've had the horn for about two years and still haven't played a gig with it (mainly because every gig I've had since I bought it is still a small tuba gig).

I *could* justify the Besson, provided I know I'd be working in local classical circles on tuba, which I haven't started doing yet.

Out-of-tune E-flat tubas aren't much fun, and are hard work (not easy to play)...

ie..."This 1993 manual shift Toyota Corolla has great paint, and even has working air-conditioning...but (well...) it will only go in to 2nd and 3rd gear. You CAN get it going - if you work the clutch just right, but you probably don't want to go much faster than 45mph." (etc...)

...'nuff said.

Gotcha. The only experience I have on tuba is my horns. The 12J plays surprisingly well in tune with 1+3/123, but I've been figuring it has to do with my fast lip adjustments.

Would you say I'm better off saving up for something rather than getting something like the monster?