TubaForum.net

Hi-
I'm interested in learning how to play walking bass lines on tuba.
I have plenty of resources for electric bass but I'm wondering if there are any that are tuba specific.
I notice that QPress has "The Breathing Bass Line" by Bob Stewart- is this at all useful?

Thanks-

Rob.

I don't know the book, but Bob is great.

Honestly, though, you'd get more from a book like The Evolving Bassist by Rufus Reid and a copy of Arban's. The necessary information for walking is theory based, not technique based specific to an instrument.

You'd really get more out of transcribing Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, Charles Mingus, etc. And listen to Rich Matteson if you want to hear how it's applied to tuba.

Also, to understand jazz Harmony, pick up The Jazz Language by Dan Hearle.

I’m going to try to not post very much in this thread, though I suspect this post might (??) end up being semi-long.
I will say that the more you sound like a pizzicato string bass, the better…and only utilizing textbook wind-instrument articulations learned in school band class (and even in classically-oriented private lessons) - as well as textbook wind-instrument sustain principles - really doesn’t accomplish that.
As far as the specific notes are concerned, those come with experience, along with investing some serious time into listening to recordings of bass players who really make you smile, when you hear them.
Many of the best “walking“ bass lines “walk“ past pitches which Bach would have chosen in chorale harmonizations...ie. pitches which sound best with the melody pitch, as well as considering where the melody is headed. This becomes fairly easy later, when the actual songs‘ melodies are being played, but requires much more concentration and anticipation/prognostication/foreseeing/playing-the-odds when striving to do this with an improvised solo.
Having listened to recordings of myself playing in jazz bands, I am the most satisfied with what I hear when I know that I was both paying attention to what I was doing, and to what everyone else was doing.
——-
I guess I could throw this in…but is this sort of a “way down the road“ type of thing to consider:
If there is a tenor/baritone-voiced instrument in the combo - and there is a harmony line that this instrument typically plays...no matter how “cool“ or “fun to play” that line is, try to avoid playing that line…unless the person who is supposed to be playing that line isn’t hip enough to know the line, and that they are supposed to be covering it...AND if you play it once – because they weren’t covering it – and they pick up on it, avoid playing it from then on.

I've looked for the equivalent of a moving box pattern on a tuba.

I haven't found one yet!!

Over the years, a handful of people have asked if I could teach them some things. I believe they viewed bass-lines/jazz/playing-without-sheet-music, etc. as a “trick“ – sort of like triple tonguing or lip trills. As soon as they discovered that it was a “completely new thing that required study/work/experience/considerable strengthening of aural skills/on-the-fly access to theoretical knowledge“, they quit coming.

The funny thing is, while a lot of bands prefer the bass in gigs, if you really work up your walking chops, you'll be pretty unique.

Most locations have a stable of very competent tuba players, but ones who can play changes are very hard to come by. There's a number of them where I live, only because they were in high demand 30 years ago. Now, most of them are for the most part retired.

The local bass guru (who happens to play some tuba too) told me to move my euph chops to tuba and play everything I can play on bass if I plan to move to Orlando. Probably one of the best pieces of advice I've been given.

If you want to learn to walk on tuba, the basics are easy to understand, but it might take a few years to become competent enough that your bandleader isn't giving you the stink eye on the gig. Then it takes decades more to truly master.

Bloke is right. Emulation of actual bassists is more important. And it takes work.

I still stand by The Evolving Bassist being the right choice, even though it's "meant" for bass players. If a Hammond B3 player wanted to improve his basslines, I'd still suggest that over a keyboard-centric book. But again, Bloke is right that listening takes precedence here.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:04 am I've looked for the equivalent of a moving box pattern on a tuba.

I haven't found one yet!!

Correct. One quickly realizes they must know their scales and arpeggios.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:44 am I’m going to try to not post very much in this thread, though I suspect this post might (??) end up being semi-long.
I will say that the more you sound like a pizzicato string bass, the better…and only utilizing textbook wind-instrument articulations learned in school band class (and even in classically-oriented private lessons) - as well as textbook wind-instrument sustain principles - really doesn’t accomplish that.

@RobCrowdy, Joe is correct (13!). If you can get the upright bass sound and feel, you're in the gate. I don't know if you play upright bass, but if not, you should listen to some great bassists and make your sound like that.

As far as the specific notes are concerned, those come with experience, along with investing some serious time into listening to recordings of bass players who really make you smile, when you hear them.
Many of the best “walking“ bass lines “walk“ past pitches which Bach would have chosen in chorale harmonizations...ie. pitches which sound best with the melody pitch, as well as considering where the melody is headed. This becomes fairly easy later, when the actual songs‘ melodies are being played, but requires much more concentration and anticipation/prognostication/foreseeing/playing-the-odds when striving to do this with an improvised solo.

If you've ever heard that the bass player leads from the bottom or leads chordally and rhythmically, ^^^this^^^ is what they are talking about. Note choices and rhythms that not only support the group, but can also lead the singer/melody instrument into the next chord, next rhythm, next section, etc. If someone doesn't know the chord changes that well (unfamiliar tune, they are sitting in or subbing), you can play in such a way that leads them to the chords if they just listen to you and go where you go.

Having listened to recordings of myself playing in jazz bands, I am the most satisfied with what I hear when I know that I was both paying attention to what I was doing, and to what everyone else was doing.

Some tunes that we play way too often, get tired of, or would pay people to not request are easy to go on auto pilot, but when you are on your game, even those tunes can sound as good as the ones you aren't tired of playing.
——-

I guess I could throw this in…but is this sort of a “way down the road“ type of thing to consider:
If there is a tenor/baritone-voiced instrument in the combo - and there is a harmony line that this instrument typically plays...no matter how “cool“ or “fun to play” that line is, try to avoid playing that line…unless the person who is supposed to be playing that line isn’t hip enough to know the line, and that they are supposed to be covering it...AND if you play it once – because they weren’t covering it – and they pick up on it, avoid playing it from then on.

Sometimes, others don't know the licks, aren't familiar with the tune, etc. Helping someone is appreciated. I've had folks do that for me so I could get it the second time around. But is it bad when playing upright bass that you have to look at the drummer, beat out a signature bass drum pickup line on your bass, and after they don't get it the first two times, the third time you beat the heck out of it and tell the drummer, "Hey, that's kick drum! That's YOU!"

Speaking of Rich Matteson...

One of my favorite Dukes of Dixieland albums. Well, they're all my favorite. Being a bass player and a fan of all things bass and tuba, plus being a fan and steady listener of Dixieland, made all the difference. For anyone who hasn't heard it, here is a superb example for listening and study.

BopEuph wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:23 am The funny thing is, while a lot of bands prefer the bass in gigs, if you really work up your walking chops, you'll be pretty unique.

Most locations have a stable of very competent tuba players, but ones who can play changes are very hard to come by. There's a number of them where I live, only because they were in high demand 30 years ago. Now, most of them are for the most part retired.

Play tuba, play bass, sing harmony, do it all in tune and on time - you're hired.
I'm not suggesting someone should take up bass in order to play tuba better, but my bass playing has helped my tuba playing, and vice versa. But I started doubling so young, that I didn't know I should have the legalistic view that they were two separate disciplines and two separate cultures. But the point is that concepts, ideas, approaches in one discipline can often be applied in the other discipline, if they are not already similar. So if one is not a bassist also, then listening to excellent bassists is essential. Listening to excellent bassists is essential for bassists, so how much more so for tubists?

If you want to learn to walk on tuba, the basics are easy to understand, but it might take a few years to become competent enough that your bandleader isn't giving you the stink eye on the gig. Then it takes decades more to truly master.

If you have a good ear, listen/play along with records, you can get by on a job soon enough. But playing with an easy, intuitive feel does require some experience.

Bloke is right. Emulation of actual bassists is more important. And it takes work.

Listen and play along. 13!

I still stand by The Evolving Bassist being the right choice, even though it's "meant" for bass players. If a Hammond B3 player wanted to improve his basslines, I'd still suggest that over a keyboard-centric book. But again, Bloke is right that listening takes precedence here.

If you're performing the "bass" function, regardless of instrument, you need to understand the form and function of "bass" lines and "bass" performance. I concur - Listen, listen, listen! But adding Reid and Stewart to the mix won't hurt a thing.

Doc wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:27 am
If you're performing the "bass" function, regardless of instrument, you need to understand the form and function of "bass" lines and "bass" performance.

Yep.

This is a point where I think ITEA is missing a gap in their jazz education aspect for tuba/euph. The ITEC competitions are pushing a jazz soloist thing when the tuba can absolutely be a busy working instrument as a bass voice rather than a horn/solo voice. I understand the point of it, and that was what the whole Mattesson/Phillips idea was all about, but if they put some more emphasis on the tuba as a bass role, they might be helping to create more able working tubists.

The ISB (International Society of Bassists) jazz competition doesn't require the bass to share a combo with another bassist accompanying him; and I always thought a much more interesting thing to do would be to have the tuba player be the bassist while requiring a solo. You not only hear a more well-rounded performance of the player, but you encourage more well-rounded musicians and are contributing to them learning some more sustainable skills. There's a lot of good jazz tuba players in this town, but I've never heard any of them take a lead horn role in any group, excepting of the occasional solo.

The rub is that you'd probably have to create a separate tuba/euph division (since euph isn't the best idea to sit in a bass role), in a facet of the competitions that already struggles to get competitors.

Rob, tell me about infinity...

If we add a little internal mechanics to this subject lets start with harmonizing a scale. Learn to arpeggiate each scale degree 1 3 5, 2 4 6, etc. --- all keys NO notation.
Next learn all of the melodies you can think of that are in your memory from kid songs to pop songs to TV theme songs (every song thats internal for you) by memory. Singing and playing these two will internalize the improvisational prerequisite skills needed play anything.
When playing your internal songs find a bass line that goes with the melody, like a march or country song 1 & 5. Alternate melody and bass hearing the other in imagination as you switch parts. Just you and the horn.

Play your horn with people who know songs by memory, vocal with instrument (church or blues are easier forms to get started).

Joe "from scratch" Hunter

BopEuph wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:14 am
This is a point where I think ITEA is missing a gap in their jazz education aspect for tuba/euph. The ITEC competitions are pushing a jazz soloist thing when the tuba can absolutely be a busy working instrument as a bass voice rather than a horn/solo voice. I understand the point of it, and that was what the whole Mattesson/Phillips idea was all about, but if they put some more emphasis on the tuba as a bass role, they might be helping to create more able working tubists.

Hmm... Could it be that the all-knowing, all-powerful ITEA folk are out of touch when it comes to 99.9% of real-world tuba playing? Or is non-orchestral and non-soloist stuff just too low-brow and real-world for promotion by academia?

The ISB (International Society of Bassists) jazz competition doesn't require the bass to share a combo with another bassist accompanying him; and I always thought a much more interesting thing to do would be to have the tuba player be the bassist while requiring a solo. You not only hear a more well-rounded performance of the player, but you encourage more well-rounded musicians and are contributing to them learning some more sustainable skills.

Thank you, Bop! I have wondered the same thing FOR YEARS. ITEA! Are you paying attention???


It's wonderful to have orchestral or soloist chops, but neither are the be-all-end-all to real-world tuba playing. You actually have to have a place to use them. Orchestral jobs that pay a living wage are incredibly rare and extremely difficult to win. Careers as a soloist are even more rare. Careers (or even cash gigs) as a stand-alone jazz soloist... Uh... does that unicorn really exist? Playing in some kind of band/group/combo where you lay down the foundation and occasionally get the nod (regardless of the style or genre) is WAAAAAYYYYY more common than the rest of those elite, academia-approved jobs put together. And ITEA could certainly have a similar setup in which the tubist has to hold down the foundation and take a turn and be judged on BOTH. Sustainable skills indeed!

There's a lot of good jazz tuba players in this town, but I've never heard any of them take a lead horn role in any group, excepting of the occasional solo.

Like my previous point, this is the reality. Be the foundation that everyone can easily sit on, and they throw you a bone once in a while. Believe it or not, there is pride and joy that comes from doing the bass job so well, that it makes the job of the lead players easy, if not effortless. Creating a chordal and rhythmic space that lets them create in a way that is free and unencumbered will get your phone to ring. And it's nice to be respected and appreciated by your bandmates. And it's nice to get paid. Enough that I wrote a short dissertation about it.

The rub is that you'd probably have to create a separate tuba/euph division (since euph isn't the best idea to sit in a bass role), in a facet of the competitions that already struggles to get competitors.

If they don't promote it as legit and the reality of the work most tubists actually do, it will never get any traction. Working in the trenches may not seem that glamorous on its own, but you can make great music, keep paying customers in seats and on dance floors, and it can pay bills. Having orchestral/soloist/traditional training and skills as a player is great and taking your craft and the music seriously is important, but you don't have to be the next conservatory wunderkind to find a job.

On second thought... Hey, ITEA stay over in academia and leave this kind of low-class work for us unwashed masses. We'll handle it. We like getting paid.

Doc wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:13 pmHmm... Could it be that the all-knowing, all-powerful ITEA folk are out of touch when it comes to 99.9% of real-world tuba playing? Or is non-orchestral and non-soloist stuff just too low-brow and real-world for promotion by academia?

Oh, man...don't get me started here. I bashed heads with my professors all the time, who had no clue how working musicians survived outside of academia, yet they always "lectured" us out of their behinds about the "right" things to do on a gig...things that would have gotten funny looks by the othe rplayers.

Careers (or even cash gigs) as a stand-alone jazz soloist... Uh... does that unicorn really exist?

Maybe on trumpet or sax...definitely not on tuba/euph. Even Rich Mattesson didn't make an entire career out of only euphonium playing, and he didn't solo on everything with the Dukes. There is a small handful of other players who have albums out, like Gus Mancuso and Tom Ball. While those guys sounded great, I only know of one album from each, and you can't really make a career out of that.

Like my previous point, this is the reality. Be the foundation that everyone can easily sit on, and they throw you a bone once in a while. Believe it or not, there is pride and joy that comes from doing the bass job so well, that it makes the job of the lead players easy, if not effortless.

Speaking as the biographer of a bassist known specifically for his simplicity in playing, but super deep pockets that he's still considered one of the top bassists, yes. When you find a real pocket that causes you to dance as well as the audience, I find more satisfaction in that than coming up with the best ii-V-I solo line.

If they don't promote it as legit and the reality of the work most tubists actually do, it will never get any traction.

I always thought about competing in the jazz competition just to do this. If I made it to the semifinals, I'd send the bassist on break. The only thing is, it would break their rules (your combo MUST include bass, drum and piano or guitar), but I feel like it would make way more musical sense. But I'd be wasting money simply to prove an unpopular (in that organization) point. The conference is great and fun, but it's not exactly affordable for a freelance musician to attend it (and, to be honest, I always got tired of listening to the same two instruments by the middle of the week).

Either way, the funny thing is most tuba players who can walk a good like already play bass pretty well, too.

@RobCrowdy
Sorry that we got off on a tangent on your thread. I hope you can glean something beneficial from all of this smart talk.

Actually, to bring it back on topic, here's some very helpful suggestions that should get you on your way:

Listen to these albums:

1.) Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (Paul Chambers on bass)
2.) Dexter Gordon - Go (Butch Warren on bass)
3.) Wynton Marsalis - All of the "Standards Time" albums (different bassists)
4.) Wynton Marsalis - Black Codes (From the Underground) - the last track is titled simply "Blues." It has bassist Charnett Moffett walk a bassline completely solo at the very beginning. It's a great first transcription to work on since it's so exposed.
5.) Check out everything from Paul Chambers, Ray Brown, and Ron Carter just to start with. Then explore other bassists.

After all that, go back to Rich. Marc Dickman told me that the walking stuff he did was after a lot of studying Ray Brown. His playing makes more sense when you're familiar with Ray's playing.

Learn the basslines (by listening and transcribing, not by finding already made transcriptions). Play along with the recordings, as well as without them and metronome on 2 and 4. Learn the changes and understand why the lines were played in the way they were on the changes.

Learning to walk a bassline is a helluva journey, which is why there are four-year degrees dedicated to the studies. But any university you attend, what you'll get out of it is this:

* Lots of playing with classmates
* Theory and jazz improv classes
* A teacher that's going to have you run scales, transcribe, and then work on improvisation after you've transcribed enough.

Good luck!

The non classical Bass Trombone” written by Eliezer Aharoni is an excellent and very fun compendium worth studying on F or Eb tuba. Very fun pieces in many styles, and the guest composer section is superb.

Dave Brubeck made a review ... See here http://www.davidbrubeck.com/2018/07/eli ... -trombone/

...and only pursue this because you want to have a lot of fun. Just like playing in an orchestra, there’s no money in it...other than spare change.

I would add to Bloke's post, though, that learning to walk gives you a foundation that works in any western non-classical genre. Of course, you need to learn the intricacies of every specific genre, but Jazz gives you the foundation to build on. You CAN make a living at it. That's not to say that it's by any means easy...you'll be spending a ton of time hustling for those gigs.

Thanks for all this- very interesting.

Sounds like the answer to my main question- is there anything specific for tuba- is "no"- just learn as if you were on electric or upright bass (and try to sound like one).

I thought there might be things about breathing- perhaps I'll get the Bob Stewart book anyway and see if there is anything useful. Sousaphone players I've listened to seem to put lots of gaps in their lines (usually on beat two) and avoid going too low too often?

(I'm inspired by Theon Cross- I love his music- I might try transcribing his backing lines).

Cheers