formerly trashed linkage and #4 rotor on 60-year-old 186

[bloke]

working on a 60-year-old 186 (fancy/delicate krantz engraving, all BRASS slide tubes).
The linkage and 4th rotor were in really bad shape (in addition to serious body dents and cracks). I thought I might have to pull the entire #4 casing and swap it out with one from my Mira-graveyard stuff, but it ended up being a save.
Here are a picture, plus a little movie.
The last remaining clicking noise is the ovaled-out (worn) steel bearing in the S-arm, which will be drilled out and replaced with a 50-cent nylon bushing.




VIDEO: https://i.imgur.com/ijiMGpl.mp4

[York-aholic]

It looks to me like the #3 linkage is missing completely!

Nice save. I bet it will be a player when assembled and finished (body dents/cracks).

[bloke]

yeah... someone is waiting for me to finish this so (before tearing into the next tuba that someone is waiting to buy), I can sandwich in a bottom bow overhaul for them, to go on a vintage tuba. They are probably happy to see this progress.

...yeah...valves #'s 1/2/3 all worked (and felt "tight" - other than the ovaled-out steel bushings in their S-arms) even when I dragged this thing out of the attic...so no fixing of stuff that ain't broke. ...and putting all that stuff on is just in the way, when polishing...and I know that you all know this.

You should have bought this one, btw, because all of the slide tubes are BRASS.

================================

The bottom bow to this Miraphone needs a little bit more attention.
I'm going to ask Mrs. bloke to rag (hand-polish the nooks and crannies) of THIS hunk of it, while (in return) I remove dents/align posts/straighten keys from/on several high-end vintage saxophones (in for repair) for her...
Then, I'll finish smoothing the bottom bow of THIS, stick it together, and see it it's "a tuba". If it's a tuba, final buffing (etc.) will proceed.
This upper bow had many dents, but also two VERY severe deep/straight-line "karate chops"...as if it fell HARD against the edge of a VERY sharp corner of a desk.
The back side of the upper bow (even more than the karate chops) was a challenge to get "somewhat" smooth, because of the HUGE/LUMPY (again: very early 1960's) seam right across the middle of the back curve. WERE IT THAT the Ferree's dent machine could magically fit up in there, that contraption is actually pretty darn good (given enough pressure, combined with a bit of skill) at smushing those old blobby seams down fairly flat.

[Jperry1466]

NICE work!

[bloke]

thnx !

I'm un-denting two high-end vintage bari saxes and two high-end vintage tenors (for Mrs. bloke - for I high school whose band directors apparently were consistently smart enough - over the decades - to not trade them in for shiny new crap), before I'm "allowed" to finish up the bottom bow. Three of them are Mark VI's (tenors and a bari') and one is a Martin Magna bari'.

She is SUPPOSED to be ragging (hand-polishing nooks/crannies) on the valveset/upper-bow segment, but is messing around on her computer.

...well...I'm messing around on my computer, but only taking a 5-minute coffee break from having just finished the worst of the two bari saxes.

I ended up HERE because of a bunch of PRIVATE MESSAGE notifications...
Folks sure do send those, which is just fine.

[bloke]

a few doodads left a solder on…then polish and hit it with some clear.
This is a recording 186 bell FLAIR soldered straight onto a cut 186 bell stack. Yes, it’s a little bit short, with the length made up in the main tuning slide.
...so, it’s a Frankentuba.
I'm strutting around just a little bit because - as BEAT UP as this thing was, all brace feet and the mouthpipe tube are all going back precisely into their original (solder-scrape-lines) footprints. The mouthpipe - in particular - was trashed, and I had to braze back together about 1-1/4 inches of its seam.
(Again...Mrs. bloke did all of the hand-ragging required all around the valveset and inner bows...while I was straightening out four saxophone bodies for her. #barter )

...This thing features one of those old-old school TALL keels...I'm hesitant to reinstall it. I believe I'll either cut it down short (though it will be quite narrow-edged), or replace it with a pointed-on-both-ends 7 or 8 inch long piece of sousaphone guard wire.

I approached this with a bit of a different tack: Even though BOTH of the large bows were just about the worst-smashed Miraphone outer bows that I have ever encountered. I removed NEITHER of the nickel silver bottom bow NOR upper bow caps, and repaired the instrument through both layers. It turned out quite nice. Years ago, I did it this way...requires some handwork, and some "tricks".

[Mark E. Chachich]

Great work Joe!

Mark

[bloke]

It's ready to polish, degrease, check over for "boogers", and shoot with clear.
It's not a perfect absolutely-new-looking restoration, this time, but damn-good, and COST was a consideration (school to a had-to-count-their-nickels/dimes-quarters school and included an MTS case that I had bought new/cheap and saved back for this tuba), as well as practical considerations. (School tubas are often all smashed up in a few months...??)
REVIEW:
A 60-year-old 186...with BRASS slide tubes, and HEAVY-gauge linkage... The bell FLARE was trashed, so I cut it off and spliced on a 19" Miraphone recording bell FLARE, which I un-soldered from it's bell elbow.
I went with the original (TALL) keel, because
- the band director says that they set them on their chairs
- this ancient recording model mouthpipe (which I needed to reuse, to keep my cost down...and I had to re-braze part of its seam on the back, in addition to being all dented up) is somewhat low-slung.
This thing was quite beat up (the worst 186 bottom bow I'd ever encountered. I did NOT remove and separately smooth out the nickel bow caps and re-install, but used "by hand" techniques to get them them smooth WITHOUT taking them off, this time. It's 97% - 98% as handsome, and (again: COST) saved TIME.
I do not like patches, but ONE area on the bottom bow featured so many crack repairs (that I brazed closed) that I decided to go ahead and patch that area. How do you judge the appearance of the patch?
...and yes, you DO see additional brazed crack repairs on the UPPER bow (in the typical "karate-chop" location - both front and back.
Also, the receiver (being a 60-year-old instrument) was pretty close to "small shank", so I had to ream it out to standard with a Jarno reamer (by hand, AFTER I installed the mouthpipe...so I wouldn't end up creasing the mouthpipe with all of that torquing).
I'm EAGER to deliver this to the school, invoice the school system, and get on to the next project awaiting me (for a mother and her kid in Michigan). Tomorrow, someone is coming from Oklahoma for me to work on three tubas (long-distance drive-in tuba repairs seem to be becoming routine, and I'm thankful for the work), so I won't be polishing on this thing until Sunday...unless other not-predicted stuff happens on Sunday...(??)

Thanks for the encouraging posts. This one has been tough, and I'm glad to have it leaving my inventory (aka "attic") and in really good shape, ready to offer good service.






Schools LIKE serial numbers, so I salvaged it off the trashed part of the bell, which was discarded, though I DID save its VERY ornate kranz, which I was able to nicely straighten (while still on the trashed bell) and then remove (for possibly later use elsewhere) in good shape.

[matt g]

Looks great!

Seems like that Miraphone could use this as inspiration for a hybrid approach to tuba making. Especially if the intonation is still 95% or so of what the typical 186 offers.

[bloke]

Intonation relationships really weren’t altered.

[matt g]

That’s great!

I’m sure they sound different to the player compared to the regular 186 bell. Would be interesting to hear a comparison in a larger hall.

[bort2.0]

It's got a vibe of that big tall Olds/Reynolds tuba. I like it.

[bloke]

I just did the VERY last thing that needed to be done, prior to complete buffing...
There was 20 inches of un-soldered kranz along the front, and I soldered all that down.
It's REALLY hard because you have to set the tuba UPSIDE-DOWN, hang the rim off the edge of the table, and heat from the INSIDE (underside) to solder the OUTSIDE...Otherwise, the heat will cause the kranz and the bell to curl away from each other.

[bloke]

hours more of this crap left to do...and then the MESSY rouging stage...and then the picking over/degreasing...and then the shoot-with-clear-while-praying stage...

[the elephant]

I am getting some vociferous pleas to start lacquering again, so I may have to give up my anti-lacquer stance, buy a spray rig, and start practicing.

I was thinking of projects to practice on (after some *actual* PRACTICE, of course) and I am looking at my Kurath F tuba. I have some serious work to do to it first, but now that the valve section is removable it would be fun to buff out and degrease the bugle and shoot it with three coats of Nikolas clear. In heavy humidity and high temps, what would you add to it and at what ratios? I know you shoot your horns outdoors like I will have to if I get back into this mess that I hate. Any tips? When I worked at the music store we had one of those fancy downdraft painting rooms and an epoxy "baking" room. I was not allowed to shoot something outside unless it was fiberglass sousas with rattle cans of Sherwin-Williams "Appliance White"…

If this is not a disaster I will do it to the valve section while it is suspended by a wire hook. I think that will help me to reduce the risk with the spaghetti and the large, flat surfaces not having to be sprayed at the same time.

If this goes well I *might* do it to the Holton 345, too, because it is too large to be a matte tan with brown spots. I can get away with that with a smaller horn (186?), but the Holton bell is like a "poster child" for slobs. Since the valve set will be removable, same-same, you know?

[bloke]

I try to wait for some of those magic days when humidity is in the 80s or even down in the 60s.
Otherwise, it takes so much drying retarder (“drying challenger“...??) that one is begging for dust and bugs. Smaller instruments do OK with a bunch of retarder, but not tubas.
I spray all the plumbing first, staying away from the big bows and bell, give them a couple of minutes to do their worst, so I can remedy any little goofs, then spray the big parts. I’ll let the whole thing dry, and then spray the bell interior - after checking it over again.
If there is any blushing, I pull it out of the lacquer with a torch flame while blowing on the surface with dry lips - to avoid spitting. Arguably, it’s dangerous, but - without the blowing - the surface will likely catch on fire.
If there is any sugar, I smooth it out by spraying a mix of 90% thinner and 10% lacquer. The temptation is to go over large surfaces too many times to remove sugar (which begs for runs). Spraying over with mostly thinner is a better tack. One coating is enough, particularly with all of the overlaps defined by spraying a tuba. Multiple coats begs multiple screw ups.
Nitrocellulose lasts through one responsible adult’s lifetime, or through three band director changes. I lacquer zero tubas which already belong to others. If it is for me - or if I am selling it, it “is what it is“.
If it is for me – and I really-really want epoxy lacquer – I will polish the instrument, drive it myself to someone who does that, have them touch up minor “traveling smudges”, and do it at their place - where they are used to dealing with epoxy and baking.
To me, lacquer is clearly a superior finish over silver plating - though SATIN silver cloaks marks, when restoring ancient instruments. I predict that someday - with new instruments - the cost of the two finish choices will swap places...though there will always be the “affects the sound“ camp.

[the elephant]

I regularly torch out the white fog, blowing on it as you do. I was taught to do that on small horns or parts like slides when spot-lacquering at that bench. With our humidity-controlled booth for complete lacquer jobs, we did not have this trouble, so I never tried that on something like a tuba bell.

I never experienced "sugaring" of the surface, again, because of the nice booth. (It was two 15x15 rooms, one for shooting and one for baking or drying.) I have heard of that but never seen it. I am guessing that it is just tiny clumps that could develop into runs or pulls? The thinner-heavy respray helps it to self-level, then, right?

I always used the tips in the tip box, which were kindly preselected for my ignorant a$$ by some technician 20 years before. I knew them by color and not by pattern or aperture size. When I get the spray rig at Harbor Freight (which is actually pretty highly regarded for what it is in the auto painting world) what tips should I be looking at? I am assuming a gravity-fed HVLP gun will do the trick. I am worried that my compressor does not have the cojones for the job, so that is another expense. UGH…

I have avoided getting back into refinishing for so many years that I can't remember much more than the actual spraying techniques. I almost want to do the tuba with rattle can Nikolas, bodge the job, and use that as an example of why I don't need to be doing this. I used to be very good at it, but my education as to equipment is minimal and my memory is faulty.

By the way, I would normally have this conversation with you via PM, but I thought it might be helpful information for the archives. We can take it private if you like. Just message me. Thanks!

[bloke]

"Sugar" is just my slang for "over-spray".
It happens less with good spraying technique ("good spraying technique" - where someone is able to "lay" the lacquer down as if a coat of plastic), and happens more with poor technique (where someone is careless, or shy about spraying on enough material, or inexperienced).

[bloke]

I believe I got this instrument to the "ready-to-red-rouge" ("color buff"..."quasi-mirror-finish...other than scratches") stage, today.

I did a to-Nashville-on-bidnuss day-trip a couple of days, ago, caught up yesterday, and am getting back on track, today.
(The customer with the BB345 Holton restoration is arriving in about three hours, and we're FAKING cleaning up blokeplace (as a whole extra HOUSE FULL of crap has been - hopefully; temporarily - stuffed into this place, due to family issues.)

I have no idea how humid it's going to be on Sunday, but it's fun to fantasize that I might have it all polished, cleaned, and shot with clear by Sunday night...

...and I don't want to b.s. anyone:

This makeshift-Miraphone (Miraphone recording bell flare spliced on) is going to look very good/play very well, but it's an ECONOMY overhaul...
Some very small very-difficult-to-remove dents (which would take hours of unsoldering/resoldering, and throw acid - ie. remotely-splattered green mess, which would have to be cleaned up - all over the tuba JUST to remove tiny dents) will remain in some of the cylindrical curved tubes. 99.XX% of denting is removed, but (unlike when there's extra metal, at the brand-new/manufacturing level) there's no extra metal available to file and sand away (for perfectly smooth appearances). Further, I'm doing nearly zero scratch removal (again: no surplus metal in this instrument). Finally, a few remote solder joints are getting a B+ rated clean-up, due to (being difficult to reach) it taking hours just to get them up to a "95% A", and even longer to get them to 100% (and 100% - on those remote solder joints - ain't gonna happen)...

...but it's going to look VERY nice, fit into a cute new/old-old-stock MTS molded case, not clank, play well, and (surely) will have the h3ll knocked out of it in short order - once it's in circulation at the school.

Work (thank the good Lord) is stacking up, and this instrument needs to disappear from HERE, and begin emitting tuba-ish noises THERE - at the school...and Mrs. bloke needs the money, so...

[bloke]

@the elephant Wade,
As far as lacquer is concerned...

A compressor that is capable of throwing out a whole bunch of SCFM's is one more thing that helps mediocre lacquer-sprayers (such as myself) do somewhat-better jobs, but - well - it's pretty widely known that bloke is (even) capable of f'ing up a ball bearing.

Roughly a decade ago, an old welding-guy (now: deceased) bought a NEW (probably: Chinese) B.A.C. and sold me his PERFECTLY GOOD Devilbiss B.A.C.

My gun is the same-ol' pawn-shop Binks that I've owned since ancient times. I've never rebuilt it, have improvised (or made, when improvising wasn't good enough) replacement screws, and the only cleaning I've ever done has been to shoot thinner through it.