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I probably talk about this too much on discussion lists such as this one, but I believe that being particularly good at this (more so than being able to play “fast stuff”, “low stuff”, or “high stuff”) is one of the primary skillsets that can lead to being invited back to play again for money…sure: along with just “being nice”.
This is why it’s really important to me for a tuba - that I pick out for my own use - to naturally offer tuning that is easily close to electronic equal temperament tuning, but which is also easily bent away from it, for chord tuning.
This is my son-in-law‘s section leader, and he does a really good job, here, demonstrating tuning with chords, versus just tuning with a tuner.
Routinely playing lower frequencies than does this musician, we can get away with a whole lot, but that doesn’t mean that we should. The suffix, “for a tuba player“, needs to completely disappear from the vernacular - following the word, “good“.
OK... Enough triggering for Peter Cottontail Day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djLTOhhyuNg

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:54 pm I probably talk about this too much on discussion lists such as this one, but I believe that being particularly good at this (more so than being able to play “fast stuff”, “low stuff”, or “high stuff”) is one of the primary skillsets that can lead to being invited back to play again for money…sure: along with just “being nice”.
This is why it’s really important to me for a tuba - that I pick out for my own use - to naturally offer tuning that is easily close to electronic equal temperament tuning, but which is also easily bent away from it, for chord tuning.
This is my son-in-law‘s section leader, and he does a really good job, here, demonstrating tuning with chords, versus just tuning with a tuner.
Routinely playing lower frequencies than does this musician, we can get away with a whole lot, but that doesn’t mean that we should. The suffix, “for a tuba player“, needs to completely disappear from the vernacular - following the word, “good“.
OK... Enough triggering for Peter Cottontail Day.

I agree with what Joe said the entire post!
I firmly believe in Joe's statement:
"The suffix, “for a tuba player“, needs to completely disappear from the vernacular - following the word, “good“".

Mark

You have landed squarely on one of my major pet peeves.....which is players with a MUSIC DEGREE who cannot play in tune because they have no idea what this guy is talking about and probably can't hear what he's talking about either. I've had a guitar player get extremely angry at me for tuning his guitar to get rid of the beats, because it did not sound right to him withOUT the beats. They go all the way through college having zero idea of what beats are or how to play standard chords in tune by getting rid of them ("The tuner says I'm in tune, so Shut Up, Ms Know-it-all.")

The Steve Colley tuning system can teach this in about 30 minutes....I saw it demonstrated at a horn workshop with college students (who theoretically had a college professor instructor back at school who had NOT taught them this) ... and they went from cacaphony (misspelling on purpose) to in tune as soon as they understood what to listen for. It's just not that hard but most people have to be taught it.

That's why when I am considering buying an instrument I ask about its intonation tendencies. If it can't be made to play in tune, I don't want anything to do with it. Tone, I can fix; impossible slots, I can't.

Well said, Joe. That reminded me of the days when a band director would tune the rest of the ensemble carefully, then when he got to the tuba section would say, "that's close enough for B-29s". It was insulting, especially since tubas are the harmonic anchor of any group. I enjoyed the video demonstrating working with the drone.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:54 pm I probably talk about this too much on discussion lists such as this one, but I believe that being particularly good at this (more so than being able to play “fast stuff”, “low stuff”, or “high stuff”) is one of the primary skillsets that can lead to being invited back to play again for money…sure: along with just “being nice”.
This is why it’s really important to me for a tuba - that I pick out for my own use - to naturally offer tuning that is easily close to electronic equal temperament tuning, but which is also easily bent away from it, for chord tuning.
This is my son-in-law‘s section leader, and he does a really good job, here, demonstrating tuning with chords, versus just tuning with a tuner.
Routinely playing lower frequencies than does this musician, we can get away with a whole lot, but that doesn’t mean that we should. The suffix, “for a tuba player“, needs to completely disappear from the vernacular - following the word, “good“.
OK... Enough triggering for Peter Cottontail Day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djLTOhhyuNg

I consider myself good for a tuba player performing on a tuba that is good for the price.

This is a great topic!

From my experience, having good intonation is a must if you want to perform/play regularly with ensembles, especially for money. This is/can be tough, especially if you are a freelancer, work for short notice contractors, or with an ensemble who has very limited rehearsal time before a paid performance. I think that drones, combined with two/three octave major scales/arpeggio are super helpful in learning the tendencies of your instrument.

I also think that understanding the tendencies of the Instruments that you are partnered with is also very valuable information that can help you help your partners sound great.

From my experience, other instrumentalists and the conductor/music director have way too much "music" to worry about/deal with, in particular, than a tuba player's great sound, but with poor intonation.

Knowing your tendencies, what function your playing if not the root, etc, knowing or having a good working knowledge of the tendencies of the Instruments and/or instrumentalists that you are partnered/performing with, and having great flexibility to adjust on the fly(even if your "right") to make the other instrumentalists sound great ("right") are skills/knowledge that have helped me over the years.

As Bloke mentioned, equipment choice can play a huge factor in your success, in regards to intonation. I oftentimes choose poorly As a result, I have to work so much harder than is really necessary. As I am getting older, I am gradually starting to rethink my approach...

...and I consider you (two posts back) to be quite a fine fellow.
Adjectives - along with specifying – can also weaken the meanings of words, just as can prepositional phrases which follow words.
I can think of one word in particular (a word with very strong connotation) - that the epically confused often use, who - seemingly - place hundreds of various weakening adjectives in front of it.
——— re: just previous post:
Again, if if my instruments are flexible and all easily can find the middle of the needle with most all pitches, I’m never going to have any problem playing chord “roots”, and - if that instrument is additionally quite flexible - I’m also not going to have any trouble playing harmonically-tuned (versus needle-tuned) thirds, as well as dealing with other types of tuning issues, such as “perfecting” fourths or fifths, or playing in tune with a “stretch tuned“ piano, which might be on stage for a concerto or playing a prominent role in a symphonic work.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:14 pm Again, if if my instruments are flexible and all easily can find the middle of the needle with most all pitches, I’m never going to have any problem playing chord “roots”, and - if that instrument is additionally quite flexible - I’m also not going to have any trouble playing harmonically-tuned (versus needle-tuned) thirds, as well as dealing with other types of tuning issues, such as “perfecting” fourths or fifths, or playing in tune with a “stretch tuned“ piano, which might be on stage for a concerto or playing a prominent role in a symphonic work.

And of course, choosing your instruments becomes a little more complicated, and requires more work with intonation if your fellow instrumentalists, music director, conductor, and/or producer requires/demands a certain type of sound/timbre, etc. That's always fun

The smaller the bell throat, the more and stronger (more audible) overtones are.
The stronger overtones are, the easier it is for others to hear whether a low pitch is in or out of harmonic (“perfect”/mathematical/physical) tuning.
A big fat tuba with some difficult not-completely-remedied tuning quirks is not nearly as aurally offensive to patrons (nor even as offensive to colleagues) as a skinny tuba with some difficult not-completely-remedied tuning quirks.
Moreover, if a tuba offers a lot of clarity, it had also better offer a lot of easily-accessible good intonation. (I really lucked out, with the cimbasso that I built.)
This is even the case with French horns, as the current in-vogue trend with them is smaller bell throats, versus a recent-decades trend of very large bell throats, which cloaked intonation flaws just a bit.
...and with the bottom of a symphony orchestra’s brass section, there are two (or more) levels of tuning:
level 1: tuba and bass trombone are in tune with each other
level 2: tuba and bass trombone are in tune with each other, (level 3:) in tune with the orchestra, and (level 4:) harmonically in tune with the chords...or (level 4a) in tune with the solo piano pitches in the left hand.

There are a lot of professional tuba players and their students using drones and similar to really hone in their intonation skill.

This is easier now more than every with electronic gadgetry as compared to 25+ years ago when you had to pay $$$ for a set of CDs with drones on them.

Stating that I agree with the original post, and have found many examples of fine players using drones to understand how to play in tune.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:36 pm I've had a guitar player get extremely angry at me for tuning his guitar to get rid of the beats, because it did not sound right to him withOUT the beats.

I don't agree with this. If the guitar player happened to have beats in his tuning - sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't - then it would seem to be sloppy tuning. If he consistently played with beats, and expected them, that's something he thought about, it's his style. You may like it or not, but it's his guitar and his music.

There's a wonderful album of George Malcolm playing Rameau on a harpsichord with contemporaneous tuning. It sounds quite odd at first, with some chords that sound quite sour. In the liner notes, Malcolm said it took some time to get used to it. But he did, and so did I. It has a sound of its own that grows on you. There's more than one way to play 'in tune.'

Hup

In an Orchestra I find that as tuba plagers we sometimes can get into a moral bind when we our playing tutti with the brass section
And at the same time
Unison with the basses.
Not only as far as tuning is concerned but also with rhythmic integrity.

So making it work usually means
1. Uh, just make it work
2. But sometimes verbalizing this discomfort in an effort to hopefully improve the situation.

hup_d_dup wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:46 am

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:36 pm I've had a guitar player get extremely angry at me for tuning his guitar to get rid of the beats, because it did not sound right to him withOUT the beats.

I don't agree with this. If the guitar player happened to have beats in his tuning - sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't - then it would seem to be sloppy tuning. If he consistently played with beats, and expected them, that's something he thought about, it's his style. You may like it or not, but it's his guitar and his music.

There's a wonderful album of George Malcolm playing Rameau on a harpsichord with contemporaneous tuning. It sounds quite odd at first, with some chords that sound quite sour. In the liner notes, Malcolm said it took some time to get used to it. But he did, and so did I. It has a sound of its own that grows on you. There's more than one way to play 'in tune.'

Hup

"Ask your doctor to see if Eastern Microtuning is right for you..."

Being fretted, guitars are (basically) equal-temperament instruments.
Stretch tuning (as with pianos: higher-is-sharper) helps a bit, but it helps a bit more to tune them to favor the key signature of the piece being played. Tuning with 5th-7th fret harmonics automatically "stretch-tunes" a guitar slightly, due to the high nature of a perfect 5th (ie. 3rd/6th partials).
I typically mean-tune a guitar, and then go back through several 1st-through-5th position chords, and compromise the tuning so-as most chords sound just about "equally bad".
Other players have other philosophies regarding tuning...and other ears...

hup_d_dup wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:46 am

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:36 pm I've had a guitar player get extremely angry at me for tuning his guitar to get rid of the beats, because it did not sound right to him withOUT the beats.

I don't agree with this. If the guitar player happened to have beats in his tuning - sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't - then it would seem to be sloppy tuning. If he consistently played with beats, and expected them, that's something he thought about, it's his style. You may like it or not, but it's his guitar and his music.

There's a wonderful album of George Malcolm playing Rameau on a harpsichord with contemporaneous tuning. It sounds quite odd at first, with some chords that sound quite sour. In the liner notes, Malcolm said it took some time to get used to it. But he did, and so did I. It has a sound of its own that grows on you. There's more than one way to play 'in tune.'

Hup

I've seen videos of guitars with special fretboards with fretwork that is supposedly designed to play perfectly in tune in a specific key. Every single one of them sounds terribly out of tune to me with some chords within the key. Special tunings that are designed to "improve" intonation on even-tempered fretboards sound out of tune to me on some chords within the supposedly optimal keys. I've gotten so used to even temperment and well-temperment that a lot of other temperments sound unnatural.

I guess that I have dealt with these issues for so long, ever since my school band teacher explained temperament to me in 6th grade, that I usually don't even bother. But here I am to summarize:
1) There is no such thing as perfect tuning, especially if you're trying to completely get rid of beats. It is square peg in a round hole we put up with for wanting to play Western diatonic music in all 12 major, minor, derived, and modal keys. All equally tempered (2^1/12 math) fretted or keyboard instruments will have beats, which are especially noticable with major thirds. Yes, to answer above: all guitars will beat, whatever the tuning, whatever the fretboard. One of the worst is the first position D chord, with that f# on the top e string whining hard from the sharpness of a major third in equal temperament. Brass will have the inconsistencies of trying to play different harmonic series in different keys because of different amounts of straight versus conical tubing, depending on which and how many valves are down, which flavor any particular harmonic series. Orchestral strings can just go tune themselves however they want.
2) All the other systems of tuning are derived from anything from pythagorean ratios through the various historical temperaments that if one really wants to know what they are and how they color music played in different keys, go for it.
3) Practice, practice, practice until your ear is trained to subconsciously blow a pitch with your embouchure that is congruent with the preferred or average tuning of the ensemble. Remember, we tune with the embouchure; slide pulling/pushing only helps with the resonance and timbre.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:40 pmslide pulling/pushing only helps with the resonance and timbre.

This.

GC wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:31 pm I've seen videos of guitars with special fretboards with fretwork that is supposedly designed to play perfectly in tune in a specific key. Every single one of them sounds terribly out of tune to me with some chords within the key. Special tunings that are designed to "improve" intonation on even-tempered fretboards sound out of tune to me on some chords within the supposedly optimal keys. I've gotten so used to even temperment and well-temperment that a lot of other temperments sound unnatural.

either overdone, misguided, or both

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:40 pmslide pulling/pushing only helps with the resonance and timbre.

I suspect that Gene has been misunderstood (or better: UNDER-understood) by many who quote him.

Let me ATTEMPT to speak for him , and then allow him to email me (he knows where I am, whether-or-not he wants to) and tell me to come back here and say that (what I'm about to type below) is not-at-all what he meant:

"I can 'lip' most any pitch in tune, but shortening or lengthening the air column to vibrate more sympathetically with the desired/lips-produced pitch sounds better, allows the instrument to resonate much more nicely, and also tends to produce more volume of sound for the same effort."

ie: "stuff that's known"

not wishing to post any of this with the post submitted immediately above, as the topic is different:

Sometimes, we are required to not temper our tuning, because some predominant/loud instrument is tuned to equal temperament.

Sometimes, we are required to not temper our tuning, because the predominant instrument is a piano, which combines equal temperament with stretched octaves (higher = sharper / lower = flatter).

Sometimes, we are required to ignore tempering our tuning, because we are sustaining a drone across several chords - whereby the same pitch (whether the same name, or enharmonic) functions differently in each chord. Then, it is the obligation of others to temper their chord tones to our drone.

Sometimes, it's just best to "shoot the middle" as the general intonation of a given ensemble is a disaster, and "the check cashes".

Always, there's a best-sounding or least-bad-sounding place to which to adjust any given frequency.

Finally, "finding the best spot to pitch a 'note' " must be instantaneous and so familiar as to be intuitive - much in the same way the really great improvisation (or - OK - really great note-reading...or really great phrase interpretation: ie. "subtly shaping musical phrases far beyond what is indicated on paper, and in ways that most all others will approve") must become intuitive. Familiarity with tuning must be learned aurally, and all the talk/reading/education in the world (nor tuba player discussion threads) will bring about tuning intuition. Only experience offers that.

As stated many times, I am NOT a "tuning expert". I am a STUDENT of tuning. "Experts" (often) are impossible to (well...please excuse the grammar) tune to.