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I just flipped past a television program (about a university’s music department in my part of the country that is one that students attend if they are not admitted to one of several others), and what the undergraduate students were doing (knowing full well that many of the students at that school would have been considered “remedial”, just a few decades ago) on the television program was very much like what Carol Burnett was rightfully making a mockery of in this 1970s skit:


If this reminds you too much of crap that you are roped into doing at your university as part of your music degree program…and you know in your heart-of-hearts that have neither mastered and learned the basic 48 scales (with accompanying arpeggios), and nor are you very good at all at reading chord changes, you are being played (abused), and are viewed as a little more than a statistic/warm body by your school.
Consider enrolling in some sort of program (somewhere) that teaches marketable/sellable skills.
Money – and time in your life – can only be spent once.

Oh man, get ready for a rant. While I was never forced into playing so much avant-garde music (which I certainly was at times), there were tons of points I realized they really weren't there for the MUSIC education aspect.

Here's when I had the brutal realization that the university I transferred to was more about the statistics than education:

1.) I've been a professional music copyist since college. A professor was extremely pissed off at me because I wouldn't do a rush job for HIM (not the university) for free, because "you're on scholarship, and that means you're beholden to us." He would say crap like "you'll never work with your rates," while it's still a significant portion of my income. What got me about this is how they're supposed to be training us to be professional musicians and this particular one liked to say to know your worth. He didn't like it when he was the one having to sign the check, though.

2.) The band director would ride me about puffing my cheeks, because it "looks wrong." I'd already been placing in solo competitions by that point, and he was a saxophone major, and kept trying to give me technique tips in front of 40 other students.

3.) I was pushed to the bottom jazz band in my final year of college, because they wanted to bring lower classmen up to be "great" when they're seniors.

4.) A friend left when he was hired to play lead trumpet with KC and the Sunshine band, and the first professor was extremely pissed. He said something like "what happens if you blow out your chops; what are you going to fall back on?" He was getting a degree in jazz studies; there wasn't much he was planning to fall back on in the first place. The real reason, and we all knew it, was the next lead trumpet player was nowhere near as good.

5.) Instead of having a "down" year with students, the top jazz band director started hiring ringers from the local navy base, and hired a local legend to play lead trombone. Said legend thought it was a crock, so he named an outrageous price...and they still paid it.

6.) Doubling was frowned upon. Even for a euphonium performance major (actually, this one was more from my previous school, which was why I transferred).

7.) I got reamed because I was practicing in a practice room during an art history class which took place down the hall in the same building. I was asked three days in a row to stop playing "just for today, because we're having an exam." On the third day, I said no more, and that this is the only opportunity I get in my schedule for practice. The art history professor told me I'm a chauvinist because I didn't listen to her, and I was told by the chair of the music department that this makes me a "troublesome student" because the amount of practice I was doing was "making the department look bad by always being annoying." Same professor, three days later, had a trumpet player do an off-stage solo in rehearsal in the same hall, and laughed it off when the same professor asked him to stop.

8.) My REAL sightreading practice happened after graduation when I was in the hot seat. Rehearsing for 8 weeks before a concert is unrealistic.

9.) Back on avant-garde: the amount of class time dedicated to Airegin, Giant Steps, and Cherokee at 400+, you'd have thought there was a real need for that in the "real world." My ex landlord used to say he'll pay me $200 if I ever get a gig that called Giant Steps and paid over $150. Still hasn't happened. The students AND professors (with the exception of exactly one professor) always snickered at my desire to learn the old standards. I've played Fly Me to the Moon thousands of times. I've played Giant Steps ZERO.

This all reminds me of a story. The first time I came to check out a specific band at Disney while passing through Orlando, there was this old bassist by the name of Lou Mauro. Lou was the studio bassist for the Monkees, and the house bassist at the Copa Cabana. Lou was the real deal. So on break, I sat next to him on this sofa by the bandstand, and he says, "so Nick, can you play? I mean, like, really play?" And I started going into the whole "I studied at x university with y professor" spiel, and Lou cuts me off and says, "no, wait. Don't give me that ****ing ****. I don't give a **** who you STUDIED with. My question is, CAN. YOU. ****ING. PLAY?" I said oh yes, definitely, and he said, then I want you to play the first two songs of the next set. I did so, and he said, "any time someone asks you that question from now on, you just say 'yes.'" He went on to talk about the numerous UNT and Berklee students who bragged about their degree, and all those chops meant NOTHING on the bandstand.

Lou was a great player. Passed in 2014, and I'll always respect the guy that managed to piss off Charles Mingus without getting his face kicked in.

All that to say, college is kinda needed for the fundamentals of musicianship, but as Lou liked to say, "remember that a music professor is a cat who, for whatever reason, couldn't get a full time gig." I know there's exceptions to that, but I realized in the following years that the majority of my professors couldn't have survived without their jobs at a university.

It's kind of dark, and I'm extremely thankful for my education, but the way most of the professors demanded we put them up on a pedestal, and realizing they weren't any better than I am now, I now realize they didn't need to treat me and my classmates like they did.

@bloke, it amazes me to this day the amount of people getting degrees that effectively can’t play scales/modes. Playing changes off a sheet follows this readily. Then being able to noodle about by ear. It was my third year when I set about to just get all of this under control, and it wasn’t the music faculty that pointed me in that direction. It was local pros and fellow students (who now earn their money playing) that put me on the path to being proficient at some level.

@BopEuph, your summary doesn’t sound all that unique, unfortunately. WDW was right down the road, along with a lot of other live music, while I was in school. A few of us would go an consume and immerse ourselves in it. Not a coincidence, we were also the best players in the school. Spinning off our own quintets and groups as well. But the faculty typically rewarded mediocrity.

When you have kids getting rewarded (usually by being put into some exclusive honors club or whatever) by being a slave to the department while other people (e.g. me) are getting good grades, playing the spots off the page, and making money from lessons and gigs, it becomes crystal clear where the importance to the department lies.

Don't worry guys, 2021 woke college music classes (particularly without those annoying in-person music rehearsal and playing sessions) will teach today's young adults what's up.

Bob, I've heard plenty of stories like that, and it's all crap just like you had. I think of it this way:
* Music major is outstanding and gets good opportunities to leave and chase the dream. "What will you fall back on?" and "You haven't done your time" or "It's all ego..."
* Basketball or football player is outstanding and goes pro after one or two years "of college." That's expected, wish him well, hope he can drive more talent into the school.

Pretty sad that being a pro football or basketball player is a more respected career path than pro musician. I mean, there's a ton more money and a ton more jobs comparitively... but that's still sad.

Side note: the best student musician I knew in college was a sax player. Holy cow, that guy was outrageous. But a jerk. And immature. And as if he has spent his first 18 years of life playing saxophone to perfection and that's it. All ego. But then his playing outlasted and backed up his ego. He was just that good. I forget what happened to him after that, I think Eastman DMA, then Army Band or something. And now a soloist and/or teaching at university.

The second best was a guy flute player (rare enough) who was also a great conductor. Huge ego. Huge talent. But also humble enough and extremely talented. Last I heard, he has made a very good career leading a service band out west or something.

There are so many high egos, teachers can get too used to shooting them down. High egos plus high talent takes some sculpting and refinement, but not doubt and belittling. If that's the experience, then the student should move on in life, work, or at least a different school.

hmm
I didn't bring up bullying by faculty, but - since it's been brought up...

At first school I attended, there was NO student bullying by studio teachers...(at least not down my hallway), and the only bullying occurred from the band directors (who controlled the dough, and - at that time - a LOT of dough flowed through their fingers - and I tended to laugh that crap off)...but - at the second place I attended - it did occur, it caught me off guard, and (though weak in other ways, not suffering from low self-esteem) I left (and with very little notice).

matt g wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:25 am When you have kids getting rewarded (usually by being put into some exclusive honors club or whatever) by being a slave to the department while other people (e.g. me) are getting good grades, playing the spots off the page, and making money from lessons and gigs, it becomes crystal clear where the importance to the department lies.

Substitute the word "employees" for "kids" and you have the corporate world. The kisser-uppers get promoted no matter how terrible they are...excellent technical skills are not needed to tell other people to use *their* technical skills to do a job that makes their boss look good and get promoted again.
Colleges, from what I've heard, may be even worse than the corporate world in terms of the games that must be played in order to stay long enough to get tenure. Then once tenure is achieved, forget about anything anymore because for most of them, that was the goal, not being an actual college professor who actually teaches worthwhile things to desiring students.

Want me to go on about intonation again? (I thought not.)

When was at IU, teachers were in charge of which students got into the top and not-top orchestras. Teachers with more students had to put some in the lower orchestra because they had used up their allotment in the higher orchestra. Students passed upper division exams based on who their teacher was. This was in the late 1960s. I never was aware of any outright abuse. However I was young enough and the culture was different enough, that I may have had no reaction to things that nowadays I would raise Cain over.
I took a course in music theory in high school that allowed me to test out of the first semester of theory at IU...which consisted of just those things I see the complaints about, all the scales, modes, arpeggios, and simple chords. Amazing. In high school I learned those, but already knew most of it from piano lessons before that.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:28 am When was at IU, teachers were in charge of which students got into the top and not-top orchestras. Teachers with more students had to put some in the lower orchestra because they had used up their allotment in the higher orchestra. Students passed upper division exams based on who their teacher was. This was in the late 1960s. I never was aware of any outright abuse. However I was young enough and the culture was different enough, that I may have had no reaction to things that nowadays I would raise Cain over.
I took a course in music theory in high school that allowed me to test out of the first semester of theory at IU...which consisted of just those things I see the complaints about, all the scales, modes, arpeggios, and simple chords. Amazing. In high school I learned those, but already knew most of it from piano lessons before that.

I knew all of those rudiments on piano and guitar...
With the tuba, (admittedly) when I entered kolij, only majors (range of the instrument) were under my tuba-fingers, but - well... - tuba scales are really easy, compared to guitar or piano scales, and (very shortly) all of that stuff (as other scales/arpeggios are just altered versions of major scales, and - with brass instruments - there aren't that many mashed buttons from which to choose) those were all under my fingers within a few weeks. Again, the reason that I migrated from guitar to tuba was that - suddenly - I was being paid way more money while being expected to demonstrate far less technical prowess.

Yeah, sorry for that tangent. I didn't mean for it to be about the teacher bullying (there certainly was a lot of that, though), but how a lot of their ridiculous "lessons" and "education" didn't mean squat outside those four walls.

The same professor upset that I was going to charge for a job is one of those "know your worth" type of braggarts when he charges for gigs. Yet, in a "how to survive in the real world" masterclass he ran, one of his first lessons is "always say yes, and don't even worry about how much it pays. That will come later." That kind of mentality might have worked a bit more 40 years ago, but nowadays, even the best local musicians (in one of the top entertainment centers in the world) have to explain why $25 and a free burger is NOT a desirable gig, even for an amateur. Still, he bounced back and forth between "money good" and "money unimportant" depending on how it made him look at the time.

"If you're not a rhythm section player, your job is to help them pack and unpack." No thanks, I don't need the trumpet player helping me move my gear, and never heard anyone who won more gigs by doing this.

"Don't inquire about gigs at venues because you might kick some potential colleague out of a job." But if you don't talk about being a musician for hire, nobody's going to hire you.

"Warm up at home, don't even play long tones before the downbeat if you want to be called back."

"Learning jazz standards is way more important than sightreading on the spot. That's what rehearsal is for." I can tell you how many times I've played Ladybird on a paying gig (zero), but not how many times I've had to sightread in front of an audience on a union gig (thousands).

There was just so many weird ideals I left with a degree that turned out to be wrong, and I had to learn the hard way.

And did anyone else feel like most professors just insinuated that the phone would start ringing the second you got your degree? Not that I expected that, but it definitely felt like the professors thought there was this ocean of gigs waiting for music majors who got their degree so they could hire them. And after I left school, I realized EVERY music department thinks they're the best one in the country.

@matt g are you an Orlando local?

@BopEuph, I left Orlando back in 2000. I still have family down there.

When I realized how the peeps making a living playing and the peeps teaching at the college was a very small intersection (when jobs were plentiful), yeah, I knew who knew what in terms of making it as a paid player.

@BopEuph
I'm glad I didn't have that kind of experience. But that is the experience of many in other places. It seems that many students across the US have to deal with academia being full of itself/existing for its own sake, when, in fact, the real world (and the requirements thereof) is quite different.

I remember trying to explain to a (not too bright) friend that paying someone to show him how to win in the stock market made no sense, because if that guy was making money in the stock market he would have no desire or need to teach others because he'd be stinking rich and out on the golf course in Scotland or something. The way I did it was to say that those who teach instrumental majors in college are basically "I can't make a living at playing so I'm going to teach college having you think you can make a living playing like I can't." Since he was a horn player, he got it.
This is not to denigrate those retired pros who are wonderful college teachers, but the reality is that even if you are a string player, playing jobs that you can support yourself with (barely) are disappearing. When I hit the age of 30 and realized what my financial future was going to look like, I went back to school. Engineering was a far better fit anyway.

I was not a music major, because in undergrad my focus was to get graduated in my liberal arts curriculum and get on to professional grad school. But I kept up my classes because of my lifelong interest in music as my avocation. An interchange between the theory professor and me:

"Scott, I don't see your sign-in to the listening lab for the ear training exercises."
"Prof. _____, you're right."
"How do you expect to pass the tests?"
"I know my intervals and other items, which I have been studying privately for ____ years, and had the best high school music curriculum."
"But you should sign in to the listening lab for your grade."
"Aren't the grades figured only on my Friday tests?"
"Yes."
"Good. Then the moment I miss even one line item on my Friday tests, I will check into the listening lab."
"OK."

Between then, the first part of the semester, and finals, I never missed even a single line item on my ear training tests, and got an "A" in the course, and never had to suffer listening lab: "Minor second: tone, tone; major second: tone, tone," ad infinitum ad nauseum.

Folks, nothing beats prior individual study in sight screaming, ear straining, and piano profanity. And I concur with the above, in that I posted this anecdote to show that even if you are the best in your class, you aren't necessarily going to be able to make a living in music. The upside: I have had a good career otherwise, and have truly enjoyed being a "weekend warrior" helping other people have fun after I have helped people with their problems M-F 8-5. It is as much therapy for me as it is enjoyment for everyone.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:32 pm
Folks, nothing beats prior individual study in sight screaming, ear straining, and piano proficiency. And I concur with the above, in that I posted this anecdote to show that even if you are the best in your class, you aren't necessarily going to be able to make a living in music. The upside: I have had a good career otherwise, and have truly enjoyed being a "weekend warrior" helping other people have fun after I have helped people with their problems M-F 8-5. It is as much therapy for me as it is enjoyment for everyone.

That stuff should ALL be considered "remedial"...
...but - were those things classified as "remedial" - schools of music (and most "conservatories") would be running off their enrolled "majors".

People who are INTERESTED IN music should not be "music majors", but should take music appreciation, and sign up for lessons.

Most music majors I went to school with who had the "why do I have to take theory when the notes are right there on the paper for me?" had very predictable music careers immediately out of college, too.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:53 pm

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:32 pm
Folks, nothing beats prior individual study in sight screaming, ear straining, and piano proficiency. And I concur with the above, in that I posted this anecdote to show that even if you are the best in your class, you aren't necessarily going to be able to make a living in music. The upside: I have had a good career otherwise, and have truly enjoyed being a "weekend warrior" helping other people have fun after I have helped people with their problems M-F 8-5. It is as much therapy for me as it is enjoyment for everyone.

That stuff should ALL be considered "remedial"...
...but - were those things classified as "remedial" - schools of music (and most "conservatories") would be running off their enrolled "majors".

People who are INTERESTED IN music should not be "music majors", but should take music appreciation, and sign up for lessons.

1) You're right: everybody else needed the "remedial" class, and probably should not have been music majors or music ed majors, especially when I showed them that the "required" labs were not necessary for those who had done their woodshedding before matriculating in college. Or at the very least, should have been working their a$$es off to make up the difference.
2) You're right: we had too many people in college that were "interested," and played in the general college band which was nowhere near as good as my high school band, to get their "easy" hour of fine arts credit, but did not bother with ongoing lessons, and as I saw them around campus, didn't seem to spend that much time practicing, if any, either.

Oh, and just to let you know the reputation of my high school band director in my small home town in southwest Missouri, a friend of mine who attended a fairly well known smaller liberal arts college in Oklahoma went in for his audition on trumpet for seating in their college band as a freshman. When asked and answered where he went to high school, the professor ended the audition and said he didn't need to hear my friend play and assigned him first chair on the spot.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:17 pm
Oh, and just to let you know the reputation of my high school band director in my small home town in southwest Missouri, a friend of mine who attended a fairly well known smaller liberal arts college in Oklahoma went in for his audition on trumpet for seating in their college band as a freshman. When asked and answered where he went to high school, the professor ended the audition and said he didn't need to hear my friend play and assigned him first chair on the spot.

That happen a lot where I went and to me when I was walk on for marching band... "where did you go to High School?? You're in!!"

Robert Streckfuss (Smilin' Bob) was MD at my high school before he went on to U of DE and Paul Parets took over at AI duPont.

In case you didn't guess, my major was English Lit, ROTC, Band and PARTY!!

One spring our high school band was asked to play on two separate river barges in an amazing river parade (that occurred every year in May in Memphis - back when Memphis was a really great place to live).
We were able to split up the band between the 16-piece jazz band and the remaining 65 members of the general “concert” band (playing real music…
in other words: classic marches), and still offer two very competent ensembles.

I never learned sh*t. Really (yeah you been waiting for me to admit it..)
My first semester as a performance major, I skipped juries.
Later that summer when my applied teacher found out, they changed my grade to a C.
"Really?" I thought? An "average" performance major doesn't even play juries?
When I went back in the fall the tuba teacher had been budget cut by the school.
That was the year Mu Phi Epsilon asked me to join and I said "why would I want to do that?"
I took one more semester of applieds with a trombone player, then changed my major.