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I'm working from home. Right outside the picture window in front of me the local guys are drilling a new well (not oil, unfortunately, but water for the house). Of the 3 guys out there - the owner of the company played tenor sax in my band, one of the workers played trumpet in my band, and the other guy played euphonium in my band. They are all pushing 50, still call me "Mr. Fultz". Anyhow, this is just proof that musicians CAN earn real good money - just maybe not in the musical arts.
Hoping for under 200 feet, but not probable as we're in deep clay country.
Sigh.
Tim

I have a friend that is a young freelance trumpeter. About 3 years ago, he started doing construction work and is perfectly happy pulling down a good, steady paycheck. He still gets plenty of music gigs and uses vacation time to do national tours with a rock band he plays in. He seems quite happy with his situation.

If someone wants to become a musician (and is convinced they need a formal education in music - AS WELL AS having convinced themselves that they will be able to support themselves as a musician), they should attend a musician's trade school - ie. "conservatory"...rather than taking (and paying for - in money and in time out of their lives) a bunch of sociology/psychology/"history"/(p.o.v.-chosen) "literature" courses.

If someone would like to play music AND eat, they should study music (not "liberal arts") AND enroll in a trade school...but trade schools are developing considerable waiting lists, because many Americans are wising up.

Wayne Rapier (d), a Texan and oboist in Indianapolis, Philadelphia, and Boston Symphonies - as well as a solo recording artist - played oboe as his first love, but (income-wise) his second job. He sold real estate as his major source of income, whereas playing the oboe (in a full-time orchestra) supplemented that income.

Joe Robinson, (now: retired) principal oboe with the New York Philharmonic, holds no music degrees.

As is easily observed, those who make the most money in the music industry are those who do not perform while reading what they're performing off of pieces of paper.

Insurance and banking worked for me!!

My friends in college were mostly -- but not entirely -- "music people." A bunch of music majors, and a bunch of people who were in band, but not music majors. Most commonly, engineering or computer science majors. And unsurprisingly, they all quickly found very well-paying jobs, right out of college. It was early 2000s, a few miles outside of DC... so between government, aerospace, and government contractors, it was just a bounty of jobs jobs jobs... if you were an engineer or computer science major. I was a math major, and took a more circuitous path... but I've only made $50 (total) over the years by playing tuba. I've earned a bit more than $50 by doing real work.

That said, I LOVE to hear about people with important and well-paying jobs who did NOT go to college. The older I get, the more I realize that college is NOT for everyone, it's NOT required for so many things, and it has the ability to pollute and corrupt young adults (<-- they ain't "kids" anymore!) with a lot of garbage thinking. College is valuable, and it is a good idea for many people. But it's not so simple and you can do just fine (probably better) without it. Depends on the person.

There are a LOT of jobs that are great, and don't require college. They require skill, they require training, they require plenty of smarts and learning how to do it... but you don't need to study world literature 1700 to 1850 and write a 10-page paper to dig a well. And when the crap hits the fan (Covid -- looking at you... ), people will still need wells, and won't need scholars of arcane literature.

My kids are little (3 and 5), but I tell them all the time, that they can be (just about) anything when they grow up. They'll make their own choices. But I'm not going to shy away from showing them the value of real work and jobs that don't require college. I can't stand the false notion that people who didn't go to college aren't smart.

Tim -- give us an update when you learn the final depth. As you know, we drink the river down here. I've never been off of city water anywhere I've lived... so digging a well (common for a bazillion people) sort fascinates me. :)

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 9:55 am ... but you don't need to study world literature 1700 to 1850 and write a 10-page paper to dig a well.

Art, Architecture, Formal Gardens and Interior Furnishings were also on my agenda back in the day.... it was the duPont influence that done that.

This also makes me think of our friend here, @Mark E. Chachich, who I've known for quite a while. A VERY fine tuba player, who "went pro" in tuba and then "went pro" in the world of neuroscience research. Proud accomplishments on both sides -- this is his email signature:

Principal Tuba, Bel Air Community Band
Life Member Baltimore Musician's Union Local 40-543
Life Member International Tuba Euphonium Association (ITEA)
Ph.D. Experimental Psychology, Behavioral Neuroscience (a musician can do almost anything!)

To clarify...
Joe Robinson studied English and economics...but (sure) also studied music...with Marcel Tabuteau.
------------------------------
"no formal study"...
A 55-years friend of mine went to college for a semester, but (having studied trombone in high school with an Emory Remington student) quit college, and auditioned into the Continental Army Band (since renamed, the "catchy" United States Army Training and Doctrine Command Band).

After a few years, he quit that job, took a 6-week course to be a power plant control room operator, soon ended up as a power plant manager ("out west", where he always wanted to live), and retired - taking home c. $300K/yr.
(Of course, he's brilliant, but...)

bloke wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 10:40 am To clarify...
Joe Robinson studied English and economics...but (sure) also studied music...with Marcel Tabuteau.
------------------------------
"no formal study"...
A 55-years friend of mine went to college for a semester, but (having studied trombone in high school with an Emory Remington student) quit college, and auditioned into the Continental Army Band (since renamed, the "catchy" United States Army Training and Doctrine Command Band).

After a few years, he quit that job, took a 6-week course to be a power plant control room operator, soon ended up as a power plant manager ("out west", where he always wanted to live), and retired - taking home c. $300K/yr.
(Of course, he's brilliant, but...)

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 10:35 am This also makes me think of our friend here, @Mark E. Chachich, who I've known for quite a while. A VERY fine tuba player, who "went pro" in tuba and then "went pro" in the world of neuroscience research. Proud accomplishments on both sides -- this is his email signature:

Principal Tuba, Bel Air Community Band
Life Member Baltimore Musician's Union Local 40-543
Life Member International Tuba Euphonium Association (ITEA)
Ph.D. Experimental Psychology, Behavioral Neuroscience (a musician can do almost anything!)

I wanted to reply sooner but I have a new job that takes a lot of time.

What musical studies did for me:
I was trained to asses what I was doing correctly and not correctly. The type of assessment that musicians are trained to do carries over into other fields. Without my musical training I would have a lot harder time switching to neuroscience (and statistics). Music also trains someone to be a team player, that is important! Music also is a window on what we are as humans. So, in my opinion musicians (at whatever level) have what it takes to do whatever is called for. I can go on for pages about why musical training is a good thing.

Best to my fellow musicians at whatever level and whatever they play or what part they sing!
Mark

MN_TimTuba wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 9:00 am I'm working from home. Right outside the picture window in front of me the local guys are drilling a new well (not oil, unfortunately, but water for the house). Of the 3 guys out there - the owner of the company played tenor sax in my band, one of the workers played trumpet in my band, and the other guy played euphonium in my band. They are all pushing 50, still call me "Mr. Fultz". Anyhow, this is just proof that musicians CAN earn real good money - just maybe not in the musical arts.
Hoping for under 200 feet, but not probable as we're in deep clay country.
Sigh.
Tim

When I read the title, the voice in my head said, "Musicians CAN get good jobs if those jobs are REAL jobs." And that was pretty much the point (except that your delivery was not offensive like mine LOL). Unless you are one of the incredibly small minority that actually DOES make a good living in the music arts/music business, a real job is the answer. Not that playing music can't be a real job, but let's be real - that's reserved for very few. Everyone else should consider getting out of the water and drying off (Denial is a river, yes?), and get busy getting to work, and likely making a $#!+ ton more dough than the average professional musician.

With the exception of maybe one or two symphony players, all my "full-time" musician friends around here don't make what I make in their best year (even those touring with Nashville folk), and nearly all have been struggling to eat and pay bills during Coronamadness. Despite Coronamadness and despite having less gigs, I had my best year of income in 2020 (unfortunately, Uncle Sam is going to have his way with me, but I'm prepared for that also). I sold my collection of tubas, and had the cash to upgraded them all with cash to spare. Paid off nearly all of our debt in 2020. My job isn't some amazing engineering job that pays six figures. I'm not a CEO. I don't own a successful business. I don't own a big cattle ranch, I'm not an oil man, and I'm not a rich rice farmer. Not even close. And despite making good money playing music, I'm definitely not a full-time musician. But my pay is decent, and I try to be reasonably frugal and intentional with my spending. The difference is I that I bust my @$$ putting in 80-90hrs (sometimes 100hrs) per week. Why? Because the work is there, and I like getting paid. I usually can find time to practice, and I'm available to play any gigs that come along. I don't want to work like that forever, but it's there for the taking. And I like it when the check shows up. If someone really wants to work, THEY CAN. It might not involve a tuba, but there's plenty of work available. A few of our colleagues and friends do make their living with the tuba, and I think that's fantastic and I believe they are blessed. Every time I start dreaming and thinking I want to play for a living full-time, I'm reminded that people in Hell want ice water, too.

On numerous occasions when discussing wants and wishes, both my mother and father told me to, "Wish in one hand and $#!+ in the other, and see which one fills up first." That certainly was instructive.