Using sousaphone clusters on tubas

[Tubajug]

Hello all,

Someday I'll actually get a start on my next project, so in the meantime I'll just ask questions about it!

I plan on using a 14K valveset to build a large-ish concert tuba. Are there any issues in using sousaphone sets when building "concert" horns?

Thanks!

[York-aholic]

For my York 712 (originally 3 front action pistons that were severely worn), I purchased a contemporary vintage York monster sousaphone to use the valve set.

It was a no go, as the angle of the tubing coming off the block was just different enough that the angle of the block wouldn’t fit in the bugle opening (width wise).

But I don’t see that being a problem when you are building the horn from point zero and can design around that.

[bloke]

The only issue I see is that the upper returns are going to be at a downward angle (conforming to the curvature of the sousaphone body), which will give the instrument a very “Frankentuba-ed” appearance, unless you do a lot of re-tubing.

[Tubajug]

You mean how the number one circuit is the tallest, second a bit shorter and the third the shortest? I had thought about. I was planning on doing some retubing, so perhaps I can address that. Thanks!

[the elephant]

Remember that they don't just cock off to the side at 45º (±) but that they also will tilt upwards about 10º to 15º…

[bloke]

Remember that they don't just cock off to the side at 45º (±) but that they also will tilt upwards about 10º to 15º…

It's rarely that cold, down here, so it wouldn't be an issue...but Nebraska...now, that's different...

[York-aholic]

Remember that they don't just cock off to the side at 45º (±) but that they also will tilt upwards about 10º to 15º…

Some Yorks have a bit of that upward tilt too. I seem to think @Yorkboy noticed this differing between upright and recording bell models(?) like the 712 vs the 716.

[Tubajug]

I thought they looked a bit more "tilted." Does that mean they'll perhaps have to be set farther away from the bugle for the main slide to clear the bottom bow?

[the elephant]

Not specifically. They will fit however they fit. I am saying that the pistons are set at more of a rake on a sousaphone. When the valve section is oriented onto a tuba bugle the pistons will be at a 45º angle rather than vertically, as you know, but they will also point a bit upwards toward the finger buttons. (The bottoms will be lower by an inch or two.) There is nothing at all wrong with this, but as Joe stated, it will not look like a horn from any factory. Then again, I have seen some Conn tubas (very old) that look like they have sousaphone valve sections on them, and this rake is not unheard of. I am pointing it out because it might surprise you when you do your first mock-up; it might not look like what you were expecting. Not a bad thing, at all, but maybe a little odd.

[York-aholic]

The Tale of Two Serial Numbers...

Yes, I know the new #4 used to be a #2. Nicely done. One of these days you are going to have to use that cluster on something!

[LargeTuba]

I didn't even realize that cluster wasn't factory-made.

Great work!

[Yorkboy]

Remember that they don't just cock off to the side at 45º (±) but that they also will tilt upwards about 10º to 15º…

Some Yorks have a bit of that upward tilt too. I seem to think @Yorkboy noticed this differing between upright and recording bell models(?) like the 712 vs the 716.

Yes, I have witnessed first-hand that the tilt on the 716 is ever-so-slightly different than the 712, as is the angle of the mouthpipe as it wraps around the bell (it’s even noticeable in their catalog images if you look closely). I suspect it was modified slightly on the 716 due to its bell-front orientation. There are other arcane differences, too.

[Tubajug]

Weren't you considering putting that on your Holton at one point @the elephant ?

[the elephant]

Yes, very much so, and if I could ever get back to this valve set to "make it whole" I would send it to Dan Oberloh for one of his meticulous valve jobs.

***IF*** this were to ever transpire, I would consider hunting up (or bending myself) the crooks needed to work with my port angles and distances apart. If I could work that out I could make an outstanding valve section out of these nearly obstruction-less pistons.

***IF*** that ever got done then I would look seriously at installing this onto my Holton. If I could work the juju to have it fit using the existing detachable bracing that would give me two completely different valve sections and would allow for some very interesting A/B experimenting, probably netting me a fairly nice tuba when finished, heh, heh…

Either way, if this piston set gets rebuilt into what I think it has the potential to be, it will be used in some project horn that I believe will be a keeper. I won't just paste it onto a ??? bugle.

I took the 1/2/3 set off of a destroyed 1931 York BBb sousaphone in 1996 and have kept it in a box ever since. Many years later I was searching for one on TubeNet and Joe found a very close match on eBay. I was flat broke at the time. (This was in 2011 when my wife and I suffered the loss of our Department of Education Grant teaching gig and we were missing house payments left and right. Just as we were paying the VA the amount in arrears (150% mortgage payments for 18 months) this set popped up, and it was going to go away. Joe understands the quality of these valves and was also curious to see them rebuilt, so he bought the set and sent them to me and I eventually was able to pay him back for them. I was one grateful buy, let me tell you, as this specific valve set is just like the magic ones on Jake's two yorks. I took the original set with me to a lesson and we compared the two. My three pistons fit his horn and the ports lined up very nicely. He could have used them as spares.

Also, the sousaphones had this nice water drain in the lower caps, and the set that Joe had located also had these, so it was an exact match. The serial numbers (always requiring a guess with York) were close enough together to make them probably only a year apart in age.

The 4th in this photo came from that set. One valve was pretty much ruined so that was the sacrificial casing. It is junk now. The remaining valve is in a box. If I ever see anyone looking for one of these exact valves I can sell it to them. They are very large (length and diameter) and have a long throw, so I do not imagine that they will have lightning-fast action, but the pistons themselves are very lightweight. So who knows? Until I have the valve work done the answer is only long-dead sousaphone players know. HA!

I want to try the Martin Wilk/Tony Kniffen thing with my good Conn 24J with this valve set and a Miraphone Siegfried bell. I think this would be a pretty good tuba, but no guarantees. I have not heard much feedback on this Wilk creation, blood or bad. It was (I think) a 36J BBb with the Miraphone bell, so front pistons, full stroke. It is a re-belled tuba. I want to use only the outer and inner branches from the Conn. I think that might work better, in the end.

[Three Valves]

No sousaphone respect whatsoever...

[the elephant]

No sousaphone respect whatsoever...

Your next project assignment is to modify and install the piston/rotor machine from a nice HB-50 onto a Conn 20K, lengthening the slides to play in Bb.

Give a sousaphone some Frankenlove.

[York-aholic]

@the elephant I think I asked you this once before, but...

When you super glued (just kidding) that 2nd on the back of #1,2,3 and put silver rod between them, were they just very carefully soldered in place, or did you just kiss the casings with a mill to create a flat spot for them to seat against?

1+2+3+2=4 <-- franken tuba valve cluster math

[the elephant]

In that photo the rod is just soft soldered in place. I have a brand new, never assembled Kanstul casing pin and a junked piston casing that has been drilled for the pin as an example for what I need to do to copy that work. The pin matches my York valves perfectly, like it were made using York valves as a pattern. (Pin, only. The casing is completely different.) I hope to get my lathe up and running soon so I can duplicate this pin. I need a small mill to allow me to make the four plunge cuts into the two casings with some accuracy. My el cheapo drill press is not up to that fine a standard. (It does not have an accurate X/Y vice and the but has some runout. Oh well, it is good enough for woodworking. I guess.)



Once I have these things (by my own work or by having a machine shop do the drilling while I stand there) I will assemble the casings as I want them to be, and then send the whole valve set to Dan for rebuilding.

This will also involve my silver soldering new knuckles into a few places, and also silver soldering King style "flares" to the knuckles to allow me to port the knuckles as I wish. Right now the "flares" are soft soldered in place. Also, the ends of the knuckles are not cut exactly straight beneath the outer "flare" tubes, so big gaps would likely exist in these sort of crucial locations. It would be like EVERY port on the valve set were like a crooked or gapped leadpipe end at the 1st valve, so I really need to correct this. It is painstakingly slow eyeball work that I don't have time for right now. Perhaps this winter when it is too cold for me to work outdoors at my main bench I can sit with hot coffee and a space heater and this hot mess of a valve set to see if I can un-mess it a little bit.

These York sousaphone valves are some of the best designed valves I have ever seen, so I am hoping all this work and $$$$ will net me something like what I am imagining.

Here is an album of pics of these valves that I have never ordered or annotated, just a photo dump that I had hoped to organize one day. Maybe when I get back to the valves I can organize this album. Anyway, the photos are pretty self-explanatory. If anyone wants to look at them, here is the link. You can see a little bit of how I think through stuff like this. It is not pretty, but it might be interesting. Years after I did this work I bought some nice tools to make all this more accurate. I also fixed the fit of that knuckle "sleeve" since, but there is a good sized gap inside, so I hope to remove this pair of knuckle halves and replace them with a bit of same-size crook from one of the original crooks that I will not be reusing. It will fit nicely, and the stubs can be cut out during the valve rebuild. I have had very good luck so far removing valve ports and reorienting them to suit my needs. These did not require any trimming, internally, and surprisingly enough did not leak around the valve port, internally. If I do this with new material and have the valve job done, (along with the two casing pins) this could be a really fine valve set.

EDIT: I just looked up the serial numbers again out of curiosity. It seems the "4th" was probably made in 1932 and the three valve set was made in 1934. My mistake. It was not bad memory, either. I have *always* thought the main one was from 1931 and that the "4th" came from one made in 1930. It seems I cannot read serial numbers work a flip. Ugh…

[the elephant]

A little looking in my shop netted me TWO pins, the two Kanstul F tuba casings and the knuckle that goes between them. I took some pics of the pins and the drilled casings. If my phone will cooperate I can post them.

I have completely derailed this thread. I apologize. I will start a new thread specifically about these valves, and others can share their photos and stories of grafting on a 4th piston casing to a three piston set.

My apologies to Jordan for my lack of consideration.

[Tubajug]

My apologies to Jordan for my lack of consideration.

Not at all! I think the thread had run its course. I was the one that asked you about the valves after all...