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I like playing on tubas with piston valves. If pistons were short-action, I would probably like them even more!

I am surprised that no modern tuba maker has adopted the use of short-action piston valves. Is there a trade-off when you flatten the valve port shape? Response? Intonation?

- The extra surface area (large piston diameter) requires that the piston/casing fit not be quite as close, elsewise valve oil will actually slow down valve action.
- The "slow valves" portamento technique (for seamless slurring) is more difficult, as the stroke becomes shorter (whether piston stem length or rotor lever stroke length).
Whether-or-not anyone buys into this technique (and I know that it's the opposite of what the majority of people teach) someone (who plays quite well - and charges a ton for lessons) taught it to me, and someone else (who charged a ton for lessons) showed it to them.

bloke "no name-dropping, here...The technique should stand on its own viability."

Conn 20K sousaphones are defined by having a larger bell throat and bugle along with short action valves. 20K valves are probably the best known use of such a valve, although there are others. As bloke indicated, the trade-off for short action valves is potentially slower valves due to the increased surface area from the larger diameter of the valve to keep the valve ports having a similar area, negating one of the reasons for having a short action valve in the first place. (The other, of course, being hand ergonomics) Regarding intonation, the Conn 20K was/is, including the ones I have played, notorious for 2nd space C 1st valve, being the fifth note in the Ab series from pedal, for being flat. Additionally, the valve stems on a 20K are also offset, again, to mitigate the effects of having a larger diameter valve, and what otherwise would be more distance between valve stems, to ease the right hand ergonomics, but which can cause uneven wear of the pistons and valve guides.

Miraphone 1291 valves are pretty short, IIRC. Those valves were blazing fast on my old 1291. I miss that tuba.

It’s a pretty good trick for a piston with one round hole over the other - which are 3/4” diameter or larger, plus some some sort of space between them - to offer a stroke length of much less than 9/10 of an inch. Top valve caps with a wall around the outside edge can offer the illusion of a short stroke. Miraphone top caps are styled in such a manner.
I’m not saying that the stroke is longer for either - because the bumper material thickness and the cap thickness could be different, but Miraphone stems and Markneukirchen stems are just about identical, except that Miraphone stems are about 3mm longer.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:40 pm Miraphone 1291 valves are pretty short, IIRC. Those valves were blazing fast on my old 1291. I miss that tuba.

Holton's short action is a narrow piston than Conn's, am I right? And with the ordinary concentric stem location. I don't notice any great problem with mine, but of course it's in the context of a specific tuba (model 109) and I have no idea what role the valve set may play in its tonal character etc.

yes to all

donn wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:45 pm Holton's short action is a narrow piston than Conn's, am I right? And with the ordinary concentric stem location. I don't notice any great problem with mine, but of course it's in the context of a specific tuba (model 109) and I have no idea what role the valve set may play in its tonal character etc.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:32 pm It’s a pretty good trick for a piston with one round hole over the other - which are 3/4” diameter or larger, plus some some sort of space between them - to offer a stroke length of much less than 9/10 of an inch. Top valve caps with a wall around the outside edge can offer the illusion of a short stroke. Miraphone top caps are styled in such a manner.
I’m not saying that the stroke is longer for either - because the bumper material thickness and the cap thickness could be different, but Miraphone stems and Markneukirchen stems are just about identical, except that Miraphone stems are about 3mm longer.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:40 pm Miraphone 1291 valves are pretty short, IIRC. Those valves were blazing fast on my old 1291. I miss that tuba.

I have definitely never measured valve stems. I just remember at the army band conference long ago, playing an excellent Miraphone 1291 at the Dillon booth, and Matt Walters asked me how I liked it. He also asked what I thought of the short action valves. I said something to the effect of "I like it!" but he heard me as "I don't like it!" in the noisy elephant room. He razzed me with something like "oh boohoo, come on, that's your complaint?" Then I corrected him, "I said that I DO like them." A minor awkward chuckle was shared by all.

I really like the Conn short action valves on the 20K sousaphones and 2XJ tubas. I think that the valves do have a few quirks, or disadvantages in certain types of playing. However, I think that the good outweighs the bad...at least for what I do.

Ive seen them in sousaphones and in top action tubas, any front action tubas??

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:00 pm Ive seen them in sousaphones and in top action tubas, any front action tubas??

Very rarely, with Conn valves...but aren’t they now offering a four valve version of the 20K?
I think the problem is that - by the time they get to the fourth valve, there’s no way to finagle the finger span closer.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:04 pm Very rarely, with Conn valves...but aren’t they now offering a four valve version of the 20K?
I think the problem is that - by the time they get to the fourth valve, there’s no way to finagle the finger span closer.

Yes, they are. And instead of calling it a 24K, which is the obvious choice, they’re calling it a… 40K.

For the non-Conn Sousa historians in the audience, the 40K was the 4-valve version of the 38K from the 19teens-30s. But maybe they (Conn) “forgot” that.

Conn has been bad - over the decades - about "repurposing" model numbers.

btw...My wildly-painted 36K body with a perfect-condition/rebuilt/new-satin-silver-finish (GENUINE) 40K valveset (enhanced with upper #1 slide) is for sale for $3500.
The valveset ALONE is probably worth that.

Kirley wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:56 am

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:04 pm Very rarely, with Conn valves...but aren’t they now offering a four valve version of the 20K?
I think the problem is that - by the time they get to the fourth valve, there’s no way to finagle the finger span closer.

Yes, they are. And instead of calling it a 24K, which is the obvious choice, they’re calling it a… 40K.

For the non-Conn Sousa historians in the audience, the 40K was the 4-valve version of the 38K from the 19teens-30s. But maybe they (Conn) “forgot” that.