-The specific year of manufacture: I know based on when Martin offered rotary valves as an option, as well as the shorter wrap, that it is at least mid 20s or earlier, likely in the 19-teens, but the lack of serial number makes it hard to place specifically
-The time and/or place of the cut: It's clear that this horn is a cut down BBb especially looking at some of the particularly short slides and some brace feet on said slides that are cut partway through. The question I'm asking is who did the cut, and when. I had heard several times that is was cut at the factory as a custom order, but I've also heard from some who have worked on it (and whose opinion I very much trust) that it was cut after the fact.
-The origin of the valves: Other than King, we know that several American makers at the time ordered rotary valve sets from Europe to paste onto their existing bugles to accommodate orders for rotary horns. the question is where were these valves sourced from? Again common wisdom has seemed to indicate Cerveny, however again, I've seen a few dissenting opinions regarding this and I was hoping to sort that out.
-Elements of the design: The dimensions of this horn are quite curious to me now that I've got the chance to carefully measure it. The bell and large side of the bottom bow are consistent with the size of Mammoths from that time, but from the small side of the bottom bow onward, all of the bows are a decent bit smaller than mammoth bows, somewhere in the middle ground between the Medium (4/4) sized bows and the Mammoth (6/4) bows. This would imply that, unless there were several more of these 5/4 sized Matins that were made that we don't know about, these bows might be custom made for this horn, and if that's the case, why not just build it as a CC from the start? Its also interesting to note that the bow guards, caps, and all other trim is silver, very atypical of Matins, but it does appear to be original.
I have reached out to several previous owners of the horn, Including Mr. McAllister's daughter in order to try and sort out s much as I can about this unique instrument, and I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts and discussion. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of some of this. In the meantime, here are some photos I took of it recently to study/drool over: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:25 am
by bloke
Thank-you so much for posting about this.
Files (ie. pictures) - on the old discussion list - are not accessible without a log-in, and your google drive settings (thanks for posting new pictures!) are (apparently?) currently not set on public viewing (though I see the word "sharing" in the link).
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:31 am
by MartinMan
bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:25 am
Thank-you so much for posting about this.
Files (ie. pictures) - on the old discussion list - are not accessible without a log-in, and your google drive settings (thanks for posting new pictures!) are (apparently?) currently not set on public viewing (though I see the word "sharing" in the link).
I see a lot of redone things - and parts from various sources (Holton, Conn, Europe, etc.), but it all looks to be very well done !
...and the overall visual is not of a "cut-down".
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:51 am
by bort2.0
First, CONGRATULATIONS!
Second, I'm jealous!
Third, but really, I'm so glad you got this.
Please promise us that you will NEVER send this to the tuba graveyard "museum" and keep this in service as much as possible. Put it in your will. Leave it to someone else who will keep it out of there. This tuba has LIFE and deserves to be USED!
Ok, getting that out of the way, I have a few thoughts and observations:
1) I really like the bell profile.
2) Can you give us specs like bell diameter, height, and bore?
3) The cut brace feet... I see it on the MTS, but is it like this on all of the slides? If not, I'm wondering if the whole tuba played off a little bit, and trimming the MTS helped to bring the pitch where it needed to be. The Scherzer CC that has been at BBC for a million years also has a funny looking MTS, which is also short, because it was cut at some point in its life. I don't even think many horizontal slides have those braces anyway...?
4) I'm also wondering about the cut, because the taper seems pretty smooth. So, they either did a great job of cutting, or it was built in CC. Martin tubas have a LOT of taper, so it's pretty noticeable... and to my eyes at least, it seems quite smooth.
5) The valves sorta remind me of the rotary valves used on the Conn rotary CC's and BBb's. It's hard to say without measurements, or possibly looking for markings on the top/bottom of the valves themselves. Any clues you can see when you remove the bottom valve caps? Conn and Martin tubas were both made in Elkhart, so that might make sense, too.
6) You might want to contact Jake Klein (The Berliner Tuba) to ask about the valves as well. His specialty is knowledge of old German tubas... but if the valves went from there to here, there's a decent chance that he might know something about that history as well.
Again, congratulations on this tuba!
Oh yeah, how does it play?
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:53 am
by bloke
<sidebar>
Is it just my computer, or do others find that - when enlarging google-drive thumbnails in general, they must quickly double-click, in order to get each picture to open?
</sidebar>
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:07 am
by hrender
A link and a few pix that turned up on a search on Jay McAllister. I think the horn on the Chamber Brass album is the Martin in question, as the others clearly show a different horn.
sauter-finegan_orch.jpg (10.32 KiB) Viewed 9157 times
jay_mcallister.jpg (29.14 KiB) Viewed 9157 times
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:53 am
by bloke
bravo !
I wish more VINTAGE classical stuff was on youtube...
Often, those performances are fascinating (and eye-opening, pre- generic / play-it-like-the-record / orchestra-as-a-cover-band interpretation)
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:41 pm
by York-aholic
hrender wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:07 am
A link and a few pix that turned up on a search on Jay McAllister. I think the horn on the Chamber Brass album is the Martin in question, as the others clearly show a different horn.
The last two pictures are of the King rotary CC he played.
Is it just my computer, or do others find that - when enlarging google-drive thumbnails in general, they must quickly double-click, in order to get each picture to open?
</sidebar>
Yes.
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:41 pm
by hrender
One of the McAllister/Monk cuts (likely with the King):
One of the Sauter-Finegan cuts (clearly with the Martin, quick solo at 2:30):
(Gotta click thru to see it. Here's a still.)
Jay-McAllister_Sauter-Finegan.jpg (63.99 KiB) Viewed 9120 times
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:57 pm
by hrender
Okay one more. Some good playing here, too.
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:58 pm
by bort2.0
Could almost make out the solo...
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:01 pm
by bloke
observation:
Back when they were fewer capable tuba men, those who decided to hire them didn’t have the luxury of categorizing individual tuba players as to “legit“, “jazz”, “NOLA” or “pop“…
… and, how lucky for those tuba players.
(Perhaps thirty or more years ago, that “pigeonholing“ crap began with tuba players - as as it had already been occurring with other instrumentalists. I heard about it behind my back, and found it to be annoying. “Tuba” and “only about a million population towns“ are too damn limiting - already - to think about pigeonholing tuba players.)
bloke “Set me in front of a new grocery store with four musically-illiterate 70-year-old five-string banjo players, or stick me in a brass quintet playing something written by Jan Bach…as long as there’s a buck to be made“
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:19 pm
by hrender
Okay, one last one. Scroll down and click play on track 15 to hear a very short solo on "Blues for Susie". If I find a publicly accessible full recording, I'll post it.
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:51 am
First, CONGRATULATIONS!
Second, I'm jealous!
Third, but really, I'm so glad you got this.
Please promise us that you will NEVER send this to the tuba graveyard "museum" and keep this in service as much as possible. Put it in your will. Leave it to someone else who will keep it out of there. This tuba has LIFE and deserves to be USED!
Thanks! Very grateful to have it, although I must admit, I'm not much of a CC player, I'm figuring out its quirks and doing my best. If I end up selling it, it will absolutely be to a player who does not intend to lock it up.
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:51 am
Ok, getting that out of the way, I have a few thoughts and observations:
1) I really like the bell profile.
2) Can you give us specs like bell diameter, height, and bore?
The bell is 18" in diameter. It has been trimmed down from the original diameter, which I would assume was 22" consistent with a lot of the mammoths from that time. Hiegnt is about 37", and the bore is the typical Martin .710"
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:51 am
3) The cut brace feet... I see it on the MTS, but is it like this on all of the slides? If not, I'm wondering if the whole tuba played off a little bit, and trimming the MTS helped to bring the pitch where it needed to be. The Scherzer CC that has been at BBC for a million years also has a funny looking MTS, which is also short, because it was cut at some point in its life. I don't even think many horizontal slides have those braces anyway...?
There is another cut brace foot on the 1st valve slide, and given the short pull of a lot of the slides, especially the comically short 2" pull on the main slide, this is a definite indicator that it was cut. Not sure if it was cut more than once, but it definitely plays sharp across the board for me, as in I had to pull every slide out almost all the way to get everything in tune. I'd need to hear more people play it to see if this is just hoe the horn responds to me personally, or if it really does play that sharp all the time, but if that's the case, either whoever did the original cur was a bit overzealous with it, or os was cut a second time at some point to "fix" some supposed issues.
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:51 am
4) I'm also wondering about the cut, because the taper seems pretty smooth. So, they either did a great job of cutting, or it was built in CC. Martin tubas have a LOT of taper, so it's pretty noticeable... and to my eyes at least, it seems quite smooth.
According to the for sale post on the Agnew Martin CC (the one with the Bill Bell valve block) that horn was originally a part of some project where a handful of bugles were built in CC with the idea that a valve block with either BBb or CC length slides could be pasted on later. Unfortunately that post is gone now, so I can't reference that to verify. I don't see any obvious signs of cutting on the bugle so this could hold some credence. The valve section definitely looks cut to me however.
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:51 am
5) The valves sorta remind me of the rotary valves used on the Conn rotary CC's and BBb's. It's hard to say without measurements, or possibly looking for markings on the top/bottom of the valves themselves. Any clues you can see when you remove the bottom valve caps? Conn and Martin tubas were both made in Elkhart, so that might make sense, too.
6) You might want to contact Jake Klein (The Berliner Tuba) to ask about the valves as well. His specialty is knowledge of old German tubas... but if the valves went from there to here, there's a decent chance that he might know something about that history as well.
I'll take a closer look at the valves and see if I find anything. Also good call regarding reaching out to Jake, I'll see if he has any thoughts and report back.
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:51 am
Again, congratulations on this tuba!
Oh yeah, how does it play?
Aside from the extreme sharp intonation, tone-wise it sounds very pretty in the upper register with a real singing quality to it, but it does get a little stuffy and resistant in the lower register. It's funny, if I didn't know any better, I'd think I were describing the playing characteristics of a little F tuba and not a 6/4 CC. Rest assured though it still sounds like a mammoth in the mid range when you give it some gas, but the trimmed flare gives it more punch and focus than I'm used to with other Martins.
I see a lot of redone things - and parts from various sources (Holton, Conn, Europe, etc.), but it all looks to be very well done !
...and the overall visual is not of a "cut-down".
I definitely see a few Conn braces in a couple of places, no doubt from an overhaul at some point, but that's all that jumped out at me immediately with my lesser experienced eye. If you wouldn't mind elaborating (either via here or PM) I'd love to hear what all you noticed.
Apparently it was in pretty rough shape before Lee got ahold of it most recently. The solder joint between the bell and bottom bow was held together with a bunch of globed on Shellac. Glad it's in better shape now.
P.S. apologies for the google drive issues, I just lazily post liks when attaching large quantities of photos since the attachment function on the forums is kinda clunky.
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:02 pm
by bloke
I’m fairly sure that some of those brace flanges (that are cut partially) are Holton flanges (unless Martin flanges were really-really similar to Holton …??), but I don’t see how that really matters.
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:50 pm
by prairieboy1
Trivia for this evening. I learned recently that Jay McAllister replaced Harvey Phillips in the Sauter-Finnegan group.
Re: Jay McAllister's Martin CC
Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:18 am
by prairieboy1
prairieboy1 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:50 pm
Trivia for this evening. I learned recently that Jay McAllister replaced Harvey Phillips in the Sauter-Finegan group.
